How do I make either end notes of footnotes in epub?

[charleski]

Originally Posted by eping

MS Word implements this very well, whatever page size you set, the footnote will be displayed correctly at the bottom.

Word uses one of the first two options I described: it shifts the bottom lines onto the next page if the anchor is on the penultimate or final line of a page and it splits a long footnote if the anchor is on the third-last line or above, leaving 2 lines on the original page and the rest on the next page. Neither method is optimal. It does not attempt to rebalance the page length over several pages so that the anchor is shifted, which is the best way of dealing with it.

But since it's trivial to program a popup window or a separately-scrolled region at the bottom of the page, there's no reason for ereaders to attempt to emulate the clumsy practices needed in print.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by charleski

But since it's trivial to program a popup window or a separately-scrolled region at the bottom of the page, there's no reason for ereaders to attempt to emulate the clumsy practices needed in print.

A pop-up window, however, negates the key benefit of a footnote over an end-note, which is the ability to see both the footnote, and the text referring to it, simultaneously.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

The way it is done in a wiki is to define the footnote text in line with the reference. Something like:

This entry needs a footnote <note>Here is the footnote text</note>. The rest of the text.

Then the reading program can do with it what it wants. Don't restrict your thinking to a paper book.

Dale

I wasn't aware that I was ...

A page in an ebook is a virtual property, certainly with my Gen3 I can have a font size that provides page length (say) 50 lines adjusted to as few as 5.
How would the footnotes be able to cope with this ?

And this is only one reader
It is easy to see other issues with size, compare screens Gen3 and iPod ....

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

I wasn't aware that I was ...

A page in an ebook is a virtual property, certainly with my Gen3 I can have a font size that provides page length (say) 50 lines adjusted to as few as 5.
How would the footnotes be able to cope with this ?

With relative sizes, and zones for footnotes and text when necessary. It's the same the screen size and the font size. You compare sizes and include the text you can in both zones. Sorry, not a big fuss of programming, it has been made for a lot of time. You only have to make good and efficient code, but this is not an unknown algorithm.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

With relative sizes, and zones for footnotes and text when necessary. It's the same the screen size and the font size. You compare sizes and include the text you can in both zones. Sorry, not a big fuss of programming, it has been made for a lot of time. You only have to make good and efficient code, but this is not an unknown algorithm.

But you are still relating everything to a page; so where do the footnotes go that allow for all eventualities ?

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

But you are still relating everything to a page; so where do the footnotes go that allow for all eventualities ?

You don't place the footnotes in the beginning, they're related to the base text as you see in Word (when you change the page size, the footnotes are moved according to the base text, exactly the same you're asking for). The only problem is when there're too much footnotes in a same page, so you have to part them. Which is exactly the problem with this? Because I don't understand. All the WYSWYG editors do this (Word, OpenOffice, FrameMaker), taking into account the paper size, which is the difference here?

By the way, if you define a page at your Gen3 as a virtual property, the same happens at any document, where you can change the font size and the paper size.

[GeoffC]

The argument is that the footnotes are to be seen on the same page as the reference ?!
As the virtual page size increases because of font increase, any footnote at the bottom of the device screen moves accordingly off the screen ?

[charleski]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

All the WYSWYG editors do this (Word, OpenOffice, FrameMaker)

As I've already pointed out, they don't do it particularly well. A proper solution is far harder, particularly in the presence of multiple anchors and widow/orphan control.

Screen-based readers don't need to stick to a single-window paradigm, and so simply don't need to resort to ugly solutions.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

The argument is that the footnotes are to be seen on the same page as the reference ?!
As the virtual page size increases because of font increase, any footnote at the bottom of the device screen moves accordingly off the screen ?

Yes, of course. If the base text moves, so the footnote does.

Originally Posted by charleski

As I've already pointed out, they don't do it particularly well. A proper solution is far harder, particularly in the presence of multiple anchors and widow/orphan control.

Screen-based readers don't need to stick to a single-window paradigm, and so simply don't need to resort to ugly solutions.

Well, perhaps it's a nice solution for some people and the two options (end of book - end of page) should be available, not only one of them.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

The argument is that the footnotes are to be seen on the same page as the reference ?!

Absolutely. That's pretty much the definition of a footnote.

As the virtual page size increases because of font increase, any footnote at the bottom of the device screen moves accordingly off the screen ?

No, the body text of the book flows with the text size, but the footnote must remain anchored to the foot of the page. No current reader will do this.

[GeoffC]

I think we're saying the same thing Harry, differently ....

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

I think we're saying the same thing Harry, differently ....

OK .

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

A pop-up window, however, negates the key benefit of a footnote over an end-note, which is the ability to see both the footnote, and the text referring to it, simultaneously.

That depends on how big the pop-up window is. It could be shown next to the text that references it. Either just above or just below depending on where on the page the reference is.

Dale

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Absolutely. That's pretty much the definition of a footnote.



No, the body text of the book flows with the text size, but the footnote must remain anchored to the foot of the page. No current reader will do this.

Certainly true but if the actual data is present in the file at the point of the footnote reference then this data can be easily factored into the pagination at the time it is done. If there is not room for the footnote on the page with the text then break the page before the text and place the reference on the next page along with the footnote. The only real problem occurs if the footnote by itself is longer than a page. If so you can start the footnote on the page with the text and give the rest of the footnote page by itself so that the text following the footnote reference begins on a page by itself. It does not have to be done the way a printed book does it.

When the page is in the process of being displayed the reader encounters the footnote text immediately after the reference with no other data. It can then figure out the best way to display the text based on where it needs to appear. You never predefine the location of the footnote for any size text. It is done dynamically always.

Dale

[eping]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

But you are still relating everything to a page; so where do the footnotes go that allow for all eventualities ?

Yes, text must be relative to a page, because page exists naturally everywhere.No matter it's screen on iPad, nook, or PC.

ePub is not a book format without pages, I doubt if there's a book without pages.
ePub and all reflowable formats are just giving up predefined page setting and let readers or devices to determine the page size, they are not page irrelevant format, but free paging or multi paging format.

And among all methods of showing notes, footnotes in the bottom of a page is the best one, it's better than endnote and popup. It's not because traditional books use it, the real reason is that it's the easiest one for readers, who need no turning to another page nor clicking.

On devices not fitful for showing footnote(such as too small of screen), it can use other method instead.

And devices should have an option to let user to choose if show or turn off the notes.

But all these have nothing to do with ePub itself, they are things of readers on devices. And now, all ePub readers still need much more improvement. (Even many basic XHTML and CSS features not implemented) They are just like web browsers 15 or 20 years ago.