With this attitude, is it any wonder new authors don't trust the system?

[jimhanas]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

The trick is to avoid having your work added to the pile in the first place, either by making personal contact with an editorial member who actually says, 'Yep, I'd like to see more' or by working through a trusted agent who's known for his own rigorous filtering system and offers only target-specific, well prepared work.

Well said. I definitely try to avoid submitting cold whenever I can.

[M T McGuire]

This sounds amazing but to be honest, I can understand the attitude shown here. When I was a marketing manager I used to get hundreds of contacts from people wanting me to advertise in their magazines. Some phoned, some e-mailed or wrote but if I didn't tell them no straight off they always chased and chased, so to give myself some quiet time to reflect on their proposal I would always turn it down. Later, when I'd evaluated their publications and made a decision I would take the initiative and approach them. I suspect in the world of publishing there is no time and no later so everyone without an 'in' gets a flat no by return just to keep the piles manageable.

I'm not sure what's worse, that or the way it took me 18 months to approach and hear back from 3 agents and a publisher. Some publishers, and all agents, like you to approach them one by one here in the UK. I could do that, but barring one who worked like I do and came back to me with a polite no in 24 hours, I doubt I could get through my approach list before my death from old age.

People do business with people so I suspect the only way to get an agent in the uk these days is if you meet one at a convention or course and they like you. Otherwise I suspect you have to be a) already famous for something else, b) know somebody who is a literary agent c) happen to be writing the next hottest genre/style d) have self published an earlier book and sold several thousand copies e) be drop dead lucky.

On the other hand, I dislike the way agents and even some book stores, treat me, as an author trying to sell my book, like some kind of stalker. I believe everyone deserves to be treated with respect until they've proved otherwise. Unfortunately in the world of literature this maxim seems to be applied the other way around. This is what has driven me to self publish.

Cheers

MTM

[Steven Lake]

I'd actually recommend something like a clearing house for literature. Almost like a Craig's List or a shopping mall for manuscripts. Just create some simple submission guidelines that all or most of the publishers could agree on (IE, how it should be submitted, in what format, what extra items are required, such as a synopsis, character list, author bio, etc) and then have the Author submit their manuscript to the site. It would then be sorted by genre and some other criteria. Publishers then come in, browse the manuscripts based on genre and those same criteria, and then pick out the ones they want to review.

And they could speed up their work by simply going in and looking for, oh say, descriptive title. You don't have at least that, they'll pass you over. Then they mark the books they want to review, and are given a summary page. Then it's a pass or fail grade. Those that get a pass are brought up for further review from which you could further thin the herd.

Those that don't get picked get tossed back in the pile. If you don't get picked up by a publisher within 3 months, your submission is automatically kicked out and you have to resubmit. That'll give publishers time to look through the lists (they'd have a bit of time catching up at first, but then they'd only need to browse the daily submissions after that) and pick out what they want. The author could track their manuscript submission monster.com style with a listing of how many "hits" they had, and the type of hit. IE, how many times was the summary page reviewed, and how many times was the full entry reviewed, etc.

Now if you've submitted a manuscript for example, and you get no hits, then that tells you that either your book is listed wrong (ie, wrong genre, or in a niche genre that's too full right now), or you listed it wrong and need to work better at your listing. Lots of hits on the summary page but little to no full reviews means you need to fix your summary listing, and so on down the line to the full entry. And a list entry could be something like this to start them out:

-------------------------------------------
Joe's Book of Hunting
- I tell you how to knock them down and rack them up!
-------------------------------------------

Ie, the book title, and a short, one line blurb about the book to hook their interest. The one above would likely get you no reviews of your query page. But something like this would possibly rack up a lot of hits:

-------------------------------------------
Taking Trophy White Tails
- Guide to Taking Pressured White Tails in Rural Areas
-------------------------------------------

Anywho, that's one example. I'm more or less just brain storming here and trying to relay the idea, because I think it'd be a lot more efficient system for the publishers than is currently out there or used. It would also create a central repository that would allow you to hit *all* the participating publishing houses in one swoop. Publishing houses would have the advantage of seeing entires they otherwise wouldn't get to see, and in a much simpler way of sorting and cataloging than the current system.

Also, there could be a system where, instead of first come, first serve, publishing houses that wanted to publish your book could *bid* on your book. IE, they like it, and they're willing to offer you this and this, and this much royalty and so on, and you get to look at their reputation, their offer, and anything else that's available, and choose who you want.

In short, authors would have a lot of power to market their books and ensure that the maximum number of eyes saw them, publishers would be able to eliminate their slush piles and take a job that requires hours of work down to twenty minutes tops (ie, hunting down new books), and come out with a much better selection process, and likely a much better selection of titles. In short it would be a win/win for both sides. Yeah, sure, authors would still have to sell themselves like before, but publishing houses wouldn't have to deal with all the submissions sent in by authors that were of the wrong genre, or carelessly done, etc as Neilmarr stated.

But anyways, that's my idea. Feel free to like, hate, praise, or run it through the meat grinder. ^_^ And if you like the idea enough, someone ought to actually start a service like that. Now of course, the question for someone starting it would be this: How do I make money? Simple answer. Charge the author a posting fee (you would make a ton with this fee alone, and would really make authors think twice before submitting a poorly done entry, especially if it costs them money each time they send it in and it doesn't get picked up) for each manuscript entry he posts, and every repost after that. Then charge the publishers a successful bid fee. IE, it's free to search, and free to check them out, but they only get charged if they win the bid and the author agrees to publish with them.

[J. Strnad]

<<I was brought up on old sit-up-and-beg typewriters and using carbon paper to produce up to five copies of each page.>>

Me, too. Shudder. I still remember having to individually correct every copy with Liquid Paper whenever I made a typo.

[neilmarr]

Liquid Papar, Jan? Luxury! Now, when I was a lad ...

***O how the mighty fall!***

Never truer words spoken, Logseman.

Interesting POV, MTM, and largely true. Face-to-face contact is pretty binding if the apporach is well handled.

Steve, as always, your take on things is well considered and intelligently presented. I'd disagree on one point, though: NEVER send a publisher or an agent a full manuscript without invitation.

Consider this: A stranger knocks on your door. He doesn't tell you what he's selling but insists that you spend ten hours of your time to carefully inspect his product. The door slams, yes?

Another stranger arrives the following day and tells you, up front, "I'm selling double glazing." Immediately you can politely respond in the negative because you already have double-glazed windows, or you can invite him in to make his full pitch because the kids are freezing to death in their bedrooms and you're interested in the kind of thing he has to offer and the sample he's brought looks promising.

Which is the better approach ... both for the salesman and the potential client?

Bear in mind, too, Steve, that the who-you-know thing (effective as it may be, as MTM points out) is no longer a full road-block. You can impress someone as much with words on a screen as you can with a beer and a joke over a bar top. You can also do it swiftly, economically and without inconvenience on the other's part.

Anonymously -- because I know you from your work and posts -- check out the BeWrite Books submissions system, put something over, and you'll see what I mean. Reasonable tasters might not sell a book first or even fifth time around, but they will get you a speedier response so that you can move on if your proposal is declined.

Thanks for some fascinating reading in this thread, folks.

Cheers. Neil

[neilmarr]

A PS to the above: I have in my entire career only ever approached an author once with a request to see work that hadn't been submitted to my wee house through the usual system. I'll go no further here than to say that he's an active and well-liked member of this forum.

The genre was not for me, but -- because I'd issued the invitation -- I felt duty-bound to move his full ms to the top of my in-tray and read it fully. TWICE. The genre is still not appropriate for BB (yet), but I'm in process of moving that superb piece of work to another publisher ... my first stab at agenting non-BeWrite material.

Never met this chap. We're thousands of miles apart according to the map. Swapped a few emails, yes. But it's not his presence that gripped me; it was simply his words on the screen and how the email exchange was subtly and expertly modified as we got to know each other. After all, that's how a writer aims to arrest and hold the attention of a whole mob of readers. If he can't intrigue me on a one-to-one basis, what chance has he got in a mass market of folks whose names he'll never hear?

Who-you-know is becoming less and less important, especially since 21st Century communication facilities are making international book fairs all but redundant. It's what you know and how you present your ideas that matters.

Cheers. Neil

A PPS to my PS:Book fairs redundant? The international London Book Fair was a huge flop this year because a volcanic ash cloud from the north grounded pretty well all flights into the UK capital. Agents, scouts, authors and publishers resorted to electronic pitching. Not effective? Guess what ... pre-bookings for the 2011 London Book Fair are at an all-time low now that cash-strapped companies have found that it's better to scrap the old-pals partying and get down to work. N

[jimhanas]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

I'd actually recommend something like a clearing house for literature. Almost like a Craig's List or a shopping mall for manuscripts. Just create some simple submission guidelines that all or most of the publishers could agree on (IE, how it should be submitted, in what format, what extra items are required, such as a synopsis, character list, author bio, etc) and then have the Author submit their manuscript to the site. It would then be sorted by genre and some other criteria. Publishers then come in, browse the manuscripts based on genre and those same criteria, and then pick out the ones they want to review.

I love this idea and have been thinking along similar lines. While sending individual manuscripts to individual publishers might seem like an inevitable system -- since we've been doing it for so long -- it is almost certainly the result of inefficiencies that the web can now do away with. I think the system you describe -- or something like it -- would work.

The problem? Convincing a critical mass of publishers that the old system isn't inevitable after all. It would probably require a YouTube-sized publishing catastrophe to get the Big Six to start thinking like Hulu, but obviously it's happened before.

[neilmarr]

Yup, Steve and Jim: But publishers and agents do NOT trawl for material. They don't need to. They already have more than enough. Only vanity press in its various guises solicits work.

As I mentioned earler, I've made an approach to an author only once in over forty years, and that because a foreign language agent I deal with was looking for work in a genre we don't publish ourselves.

There have been -- and still are -- many, many 'clearing houses' on the net. None of them work. Not one of them. Publishers and agents have neither the time nor the interest to visit what amounts to a second slush pile.

One site offering this service right now charges authors about $250 a pop. And it advertises charges to visiting agents and publishers of over $6,000 a year to use their service. Guess how many publishers and agents they have on their books. Yes, you guessed right.

I strongly suspect that, from the start, they knew full well they would attract zero professional attention, but putting such a high in-view price on the service to the industry suggested to the hapless author that his/her own work was worth a $250 posting fee.

The agent is the clearing house. Where an author is not represented by an agency, he must put in the groundwork himself to make sure his submission is well targeted and properly prepared.

It's not a tough job ... hit the library and refer to the latest Writers' & Artists' yearbook or Writer's Handbook ... hit some book stores, find books in your genre and note the publishers (sometimes even editors are mentioned) ... ask around ... hit the net ... visit publishing websites that are in submissions season and read their guidelines.

This research, remember, is a drop in the ocean compared to the efforft you put into the book itself. Surely you think your work deserves the extra mile. You wrote the book in isolation, now accept the fact that you are its salesman.

Cheers. Neil

[jimhanas]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

The agent is the clearing house. Where an author is not represented by an agency, he must put in the groundwork himself to make sure his submission is well targeted and properly prepared.

It's not a tough job ... hit the library and refer to the latest Writers' & Artists' yearbook or Writer's Handbook ... hit some book stores, find books in your genre and note the publishers (sometimes even editors are mentioned) ... ask around ... hit the net ... visit publishing websites that are in submissions season and read their guidelines.

This research, remember, is a drop in the ocean compared to the efforft you put into the book itself. Surely you think your work deserves the extra mile. You wrote the book in isolation, now accept the fact that you are its salesman.

Thanks, as always, for your point of view, Neil. I just want to stress that advocating for a different model does not mean one is not up to the challenges of the current one. And I think things are changing. I have an e-book original coming out this fall from a large indie press, and I got this deal without an agent and without submitting. My manuscript was solicited because I've been actively self-publishing and promoting my work for years. So in my experience, it is not true that "publishers and agents do NOT trawl for material."

That said, I do think tools for trawling will have to become much more sophisticated -- and I think they will.

[MaggieScratch]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

Perhaps, Maggie. But I would suggest SUBMIT WELL.

Well, yes. I was assuming that. Probably not a good idea.

Originally Posted by Over

Many publishers require that submitted works shouldn't be in consideration by other publishers. I understand why, but they can't possibly expect an author should idle YEARS while his book is considered one publisher at a time, specially when the response can take months.

If you're sending in unsolicited work, that shouldn't be a problem. Once they begin talking to you about publishing it, then you can say that you submitted elsewhere, and whether they have contacted you. I wouldn't say, "Hey, I'm waiting to hear from Random House," when St. Martin's comes calling, though. If it's sitting on the slushpile, it's not really under consideration.

With agents, it's a slightly different approach; usually you are sending in a query or a partial, until they ask for more. At that point, if another agent/publisher has expressed interest, let the agent know. If you have queried a dozen agents and one expresses interest, she doesn't need to know about the other 11 unless one of THEM has expressed interest as well.

I would suggest attempting to get an agent rather than sending your work to a publisher where it will end up on the slushpile.

I suggest that those interested read the archives of the late, lamented Miss Snark, whose blog is full of good advice about this sort of thing. She's actually still around, just in her Clark Kentish everyday agent persona; at least, if she is who I think she is, and I think she is.

But there are lots of other agent blogs out there; read them, and take the advice given to heart. They are not making you jump through hoops because it amuses them. They do it because they are busy people who really do want to see the most work that they can, and find that elusive jewel, and they have found a system that works for them. Most are fairly similar so it's not that difficult.

I think a lot of aspiring authors get a romantic idea of the writer's life; that they can just send in a manuscript and be swept off on a wonderful ride of speaking tours and readings and signings. But you have to realize that while to you, your manuscript is all-important, to the publisher or agent it's one of thousands that they receive each week or month.

While there is a persistent idea that you have to "know somebody" to get published, if you query first, and are invited to submit--then guess what? You know somebody--the person who asked to read your ms. And it does happen. But you have to be persistent, and be willing to take constructive criticism, and to look critically at your own product and figure out why nobody seems to want it.

It is true that for a very, very, very small, infinitesimal percentage, publishing won't know what to do with a certain book, and in that case the author might be in a position to self-publish and have success. (And I do think that in future, with ebooks, a lot more people will have success in self-publishing; but we're still a year or two or five away. It's getting closer all the time, though.)

Neil, I've enjoyed reading your posts from the publisher's point of view! And I'm sympathetic about the netbook. I love the portability of my netbook, but it definitely took some getting used to.

[neilmarr]

Thanks for a valuable post, Maggie. Could I add another suggestion to your own advice? Before sending out your query letter, folks, study this blog and its archives: http://queryshark.blogspot.com/

It's run by an industry pro who doesn't pull her punches in advising would-be authors on their proposed query letters. I wouldn't mind betting that she's hussled many of her readers through the right doors.

A fantasic place ... but don't submit your proposed query if you're thin-skinned. She's some tough lass and tells it like it is.

Cheers. Neil

[Redfox]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

Most, though (I'm an editor, not an agent), tend to adopt my approach to submissions. I don't have time to help develop authors who we have not worked with in the past. From a well, written and tight synopsis, I get a pretty good idea of the potential of a story and its characters. From a couple of sample chapters, I can weigh up whether the author is YET skilled enough to follow through.

Thanks, Neil! I agree, John's approach is unusual, and I don't expect many agents or editors to be so thorough. I intend to approach my agent search as I would a job hunt, in that I'm looking for someone I'll enjoy working with, not just anyone who'll have me! Some authors like their agent/editor to be totally hands-off, others like/need more guidance. It's a two-way street

Personally I'm open to suggestions on how to improve a given book (because after umpteen edit passes one develops severe story blindness!), but I'm confident that my writing is pretty much on target overall. It would be foolish in this day and age to expect an agent to take on a client whose writing did not already show acceptable levels of talent!

[neilmarr]

Agreed, Redfox. But it's important to distinguish between a good and respected agent and some of those so-called 'literary agencies' popping up by the minute on the net. It's so darned easy for an enthusiastic/desperate new author to step right onto a landmine and to be separated from what cash he might have with advice to hire recommended services (of dubious value and inevitably linked to the 'agent' him/herself).

Go to someone like John Jarrold or another worthy agent and you're sure of a fair decision. If accepted as a client, you will get the very best of expert advice. He makes his living from reasonable agency fees when he places work, not directly from the author him/herself. Too many new agencies (with zero standing in the industry and little if any chance of placing an author [even if they bother to try]) have only one type of book in mind ... the author's check book. Many even charge for reading submissions and land the supposed client with bills for alleged print-outs and postage to publishers and editors they claim to be in bed with.

Rule of thumb: Any publisher or agency actively soliciting manuscripts, any immediate wild enthusiasm shown, any hint of a fee of any kind or offer of 'extra editorial and technical services' is a massive red flag. Check out publications, trace the authors and swap emails with them. Better still, look eslewhere.

Cheers. Neil

PS: I've sometimes advised authors (not my own because they don't need to play games) to deliberately leave a ridiculous, glaring typo on page four or five of their submission to an untried-and-untested publisher/agent. If it ain't immediately pointed out (formally or informally), your work has not been read and the responder is after your buck and not your book. N

[Worldwalker]

I'm not sure the Internet is totally to blame here. Before the days of the 'Net, shady "agents" placed ads in the back of Writers' Digest, right near the ones by the bogus poetry contest people, but bigger than the ones for envelope-stuffing scams. At least now the potential marks have access to a plethora of discussion forums, blogs, and informative websites that (if they bother to read them, anyway) will help keep them from falling prey to the scammers.

I was chatting with a lady at the grocery store a while back. She came from an interesting (and traumatic) background, and had written a book about it. It seemed to me -- and admittedly I'm totally guessing here -- that the book might have considerable commercial potential. She was spending many thousands of dollars to have it produced. She had never even considered submitting it to a publisher. Not only was she under the impression that many/most authors paid for publication, but she was firmly convinced that a real publisher would rewrite her book into something totally different. One of the shadier vanity presses clearly had its hooks into her and sold her all the usual lies, along with the deluxe package. Unfortunate, really, because I think she'd have had a good chance of selling her book, but instead she was spending a ridiculous amount of money publishing something that would never sell to anyone she didn't know personally. I told her about MobileRead, but she's never showed up.

The bogus agents, the vanity presses, and all those other parasites of the market ... there's a special place in hell for them. They don't just steal money; they steal writers' dreams.

What's funny, I suppose, is that when/if I ever finish what I'm writing right now, if it ever sees print it'll be POD, so I can have a few copies to gaze lovingly at and pass around to friends. I'll probably put the ebook on Smashwords so y'all can spend a couple of bucks to find out whether that Worldwalker person can write anything but forum posts, and maybe sell enough to buy a pizza. But that's different. I know the thing has zero commercial potential. It's just a story that's stuck in my head and I have to write it out of there. There are no dreams involved.

[Steven Lake]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

Steve, as always, your take on things is well considered and intelligently presented.

Thank you. ^_^;;

I'd disagree on one point, though: NEVER send a publisher or an agent a full manuscript without invitation.

Oh, I fully agree. My system however was completely automated, and allowed you to post information about you, your book, and up to two chapters of it for publishers to look at. And you're not forcing them to see anything. You simply put yourself on the site, and if they like what they see and are interested, they'll dig further, and if they really like it, then *they* will ask *you* for the full manuscript. You never get the opportunity to directly approach the publishing houses. You only get the small blurb I mentioned above, something akin to a glorified classified ad, and if a publisher is interested, they research you and your book further. If not, oh well.

Advantages:
1. You get greater exposure for yourself and your book.
2. You get your book in front of more eyes. (IE, publishers)
3. You increase the chances that (assuming you have a good entry and a good book) your book will be picked up by someone.
4. Publishers get access to a much larger based of potential authors.
5. Publishers can eliminate their slush files by using this system.
6. Publishers can glean through submissions faster and with greater accuracy, and find the authors they want.

Disadvantages:
1. You're just one of tens of thousands of submissions. (nothing new there)
2. You as an author really have to sell yourself well to get noticed. (Again, nothing new there.)
3. All submissions are electronic. (only bad if you or the publisher prefer the old fashioned paper submission method)

So in short, it's really a win/win all around.

Originally Posted by jimhanas

I love this idea and have been thinking along similar lines. While sending individual manuscripts to individual publishers might seem like an inevitable system -- since we've been doing it for so long -- it is almost certainly the result of inefficiencies that the web can now do away with. I think the system you describe -- or something like it -- would work.

Danke.

The problem? Convincing a critical mass of publishers that the old system isn't inevitable after all. It would probably require a YouTube-sized publishing catastrophe to get the Big Six to start thinking like Hulu, but obviously it's happened before.

Yeah, that was one of the big hurtles that a couple other people (both online and offline) suggested, and that I fully knew would be it's biggest hurtle from the beginning. Plus, it's not just publishers you have to convince of this, but also writers. The door swings both ways on that. You could have every single publisher in the world on there, but if writers don't embrace it, it'll fail, and vice versa. That's why I've only suggested the idea, and *not* actually attacked it. Sure, I could write a killer site that'd do everything necessary (I do php/mysql development on the side), however, I'm not good at the kind of marketing and business savvy that would be required to market something like this.

And it'd require quite a bit more than the typical marketing that you'd use to sell a book. We're talking some really heavy duty, boots on the ground corporate marketing. And that's only the beginning, because once you start getting companies onboard, you next need to get authors onboard as well, and that's no easy task either. So I'm leaving this project to someone else to handle who knows how to do that kinda thing. I'd gladly help code it, but without the specialized marketing knowhow to promote it, I'd simply be spinning my wheels.

Originally Posted by neilmarr

Yup, Steve and Jim: But publishers and agents do NOT trawl for material. They don't need to. They already have more than enough.

Yes, through slush piles. But the idea here is to eliminate the slush piles and make it a lot easier to bring good authors/books and publishers together in the quickest and simplest way possible. And knowing the pain and suffering publishing houses go through just to manage their own slush piles, I bet they'd kill for the chance to actually use a system like this that eliminated that pile and allowed them to pick up good authors and books in a fraction of the time.

And yes, maybe I'm being too idealistic in thinking that, but having been in the corporate world for so many years, both as trench grunt and management, I know from experience that anything you can do to reduce your workload (or in the case of publishers, their slush files) and streamline productivity is well worth transitioning to. Case in point. My publisher used to do everything via paper files and notepads. Being the geek that I am, I wrote an author management system called "Author Tracker Pro". He liked it so much that he's fully moved to it already, and actually suggested quite a few extra features that I've since added to it to further increase his productivity. So that's why I'm saying that this system, if done right, would be such a benefit to publishers that I'd actually be surprised if they didn't switch to it.

Now I'm not trying to say that my idea is the ultimate godsend to publishing, but rather that I think it would help to vastly improve things from what they are. And heck, for all I know someone else has a better system out there than even mine, and if that's true, I'd gladly step aside and let theirs prosper. But since I don't know of something like that, this is the best alternative I can give.