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Old 08-25-2012, 09:01 PM   #31
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Given that 80% of the e-book market is American, and that the next largest market is the UK (where the Kindle is more dominant than it is in the US), I'm not sure that this is correct.
The world does not end at the US borders. Amazon is not as prevalent in other countries where ePub is more popular.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:02 PM   #32
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We hold iBooks incompatibility against Apple. So yes,we can hold Amazon's incompatibility with the industry standard ePub. ePub is the standard world wide. There are more people reading ePub then reading Amazon's eBooks.
If you admit that there is incompatibility inside Epub then the Kindle's external incompatibility is less important.

And which Epub is the standard?

B&N, Kobo, and Apple each have their own fixed layout format; the content is not compatible. There's also Kobo's own internal format as well as Apple's implementation of Epub3 as well as the iBooks format.

So which is it?
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:11 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
If you admit that there is incompatibility inside Epub then the Kindle's external incompatibility is less important.

And which Epub is the standard?

B&N, Kobo, and Apple each have their own fixed layout format; the content is not compatible. There's also Kobo's own internal format as well as Apple's implementation of Epub3 as well as the iBooks format.

So which is it?
Fixed layout is not ePub. It's something else. So we don't count that at all. B&N's ePub is box standard ePub just with a different flavor of DRM. Everyone else (except iBooks) uses standard Adobe Adept DRM with standard ePub. There are more readers, more programs, more apps that handle ePub. eBooks don't start and end with the USA. The world is into eBooks and ePub is the mot used reflowable format out there (at present).
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:21 PM   #34
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Fixed layout is not ePub. It's something else. So we don't count that at all. B&N's ePub is box standard ePub just with a different flavor of DRM. Everyone else (except iBooks) uses standard Adobe Adept DRM with standard ePub. There are more readers, more programs, more apps that handle ePub. eBooks don't start and end with the USA. The world is into eBooks and ePub is the mot used reflowable format out there (at present).
Nope. You're completely wrong about the fixed layout not counting as Epub. The IDPF calls it that and so do the 3 companies. And do you know what? They all meet the IDPF Epub spec.

There's simply no way for you to get around the fact that your beloved "industry standard" Epub has internal incompatibilities. So long as that remains true the Kindle format can't be faulted for not being compatible.

Also, you ignored my point about the new iBooks format, which is yet another form of Epub.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:28 PM   #35
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Nope. You're completely wrong about the fixed layout not counting as Epub. The IDPF calls it that and so do the 3 companies. And do you know what? They all meet the IDPF Epub spec.

There's simply no way for you to get around the fact that your beloved "industry standard" Epub has internal incompatibilities. So long as that remains true the Kindle format can't be faulted for not being compatible.

Also, you ignored my point about the new iBooks format, which is yet another form of Epub.
If they do not meet the ePub 3 specification for fixed layout, then they are not ePub regardless of what they say. There is not another form of ePub. It either is or it isn't and in this case, it isn't.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:38 PM   #36
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If they do not meet the ePub 3 specification for fixed layout, then they are not ePub regardless of what they say. There is not another form of ePub. It either is or it isn't and in this case, it isn't.
Gee, we sure are lucky to have you around to pass judgement on what qualifies as Epub. Who knows what would happen without the Arbiter.
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Old 08-26-2012, 02:43 AM   #37
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Jon is absolutely correct, Nate. The iBooks fixed-layout format is an Apple-specific format; it's not conformant to the ePub standard and cannot be read on anything except the iBooks app.

The ePub3 standard does indeed specify a standard for fixed-layout books, but iBooks is not (currently) conformant with it (and neither is any other reader that I'm aware of).
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Old 08-26-2012, 05:35 AM   #38
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The world does not end at the US borders. Amazon is not as prevalent in other countries where ePub is more popular.
But you have made a specific claim (that more ePub books are sold than Kindle books), and been asked for a citation for that.
Do you have one?
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Old 08-26-2012, 05:37 AM   #39
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Fixed layout is not ePub. It's something else. So we don't count that at all. B&N's ePub is box standard ePub just with a different flavor of DRM. Everyone else (except iBooks) uses standard Adobe Adept DRM with standard ePub. There are more readers, more programs, more apps that handle ePub. eBooks don't start and end with the USA. The world is into eBooks and ePub is the mot used reflowable format out there (at present).
So B&N, Kodo and Apple fixed layout ePub's aren't 'standard ePubs'
B&N ePubs aren't standard because of the DRM.
Apple ePubs aren't standard because of the DRM.
Still think that there are more 'standard ePubs' sold than Kindle books?
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Old 08-26-2012, 06:34 AM   #40
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So B&N, Kodo and Apple fixed layout ePub's aren't 'standard ePubs'
B&N ePubs aren't standard because of the DRM.
Apple ePubs aren't standard because of the DRM.
Still think that there are more 'standard ePubs' sold than Kindle books?
For B&N ePub with DRM, when you remove the DRM, you have a standard ePub. Also, all those ePub B&N sells without DRM such as Tor, Smashwords, self-published and so forth are all standard DRM.

iBooks eBooks may or may not be standard ePub under the hood once the DRM is removed. Same maybe goes for iBooks eBooks without DRM.

But other then B&N & Apple, all other reflowable ePub (with Adobe Adept DRM) is standard ePub. Outside the USA, there is no B&N and Apple selling their flavors of things outside the USA is a vast wasteland. So outside the USA, most ePub sold is standard ePub.
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Old 08-26-2012, 06:37 AM   #41
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But you have made a specific claim (that more ePub books are sold than Kindle books), and been asked for a citation for that.
Do you have one?
There are no sales figures from Amazon. There are no sales figures from B&N. But given that there are more brands of readers sold that support ePub and there and given that Amazon was late to the game in other countries, would you not think that ePub would be stronger outside the USA?
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Old 08-26-2012, 06:45 AM   #42
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Jon is absolutely correct, Nate. The iBooks fixed-layout format is an Apple-specific format; it's not conformant to the ePub standard and cannot be read on anything except the iBooks app.
I'm sorry, but no. Discussion for the iBooks format often touched on how Apple corrupted the EPub format. Many in digital publishing see it as a form of Epub.

Oh, and you ignored the rest of my points.
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Old 08-26-2012, 06:48 AM   #43
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There are no sales figures from Amazon. There are no sales figures from B&N. But given that there are more brands of readers sold that support ePub and there and given that Amazon was late to the game in other countries, would you not think that ePub would be stronger outside the USA?
Amazon took the Kindle international in mid 2009. That was before Kobo as well as before Epub really got started. How exactly does that qualify as late?
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Old 08-26-2012, 06:52 AM   #44
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I'm sorry, but no. Discussion for the iBooks format often touched on how Apple corrupted the ePub format. Many in digital publishing see it as a form of Epub.
Just because many think it's ePub does not make it so. It's not ePub because it does not conform to the ePub 3 fixed layout specification. It's just Apple doing things their own way.

So if I call KF8 ePub, would that make it ePub? No, it would not. Calling Apple's fixed layout format ePub is the same thing. It's not ePub.
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Old 08-26-2012, 06:56 AM   #45
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Just because many think it's ePub does not make it so. It's not ePub because it does not conform to the ePub 3 fixed layout specification. It's just Apple doing things their own way.

So if I call KF8 ePub, would that make it ePub? No, it would not. Calling Apple's fixed layout format ePub is the same thing. It's not ePub.
Thank you, Arbiter, for clearing that up.

But you're still wrong.
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