Beware of Greeks Bearing Gifts: Let's talk about The Iliad

issybird · 01-02-2012, 09:22 AM

On January 9, 2012, we begin our long-anticipated discussion of The Iliad. The more the merrier, and all are welcome to jump in at any time.

We're going to do this differently from other group reads here at MR, given both the length and perceived difficulty of the text and people's commitments to other group reads, as well as their shiny new resolutions which need tending.

We'll start our formal discussion of the first six books in a week, so those who haven't cracked it yet can still take it at an easy pace of about a book a day. I'll post some questions and talking points on January 9, but the thread is open as of now. People should feel free to discuss the book as they're reading it, with any comments, issues or so forth. No need to wait a week. At six books a week, we'll wrap this up in a month, but the timetable can be tweaked in either direction if the consensus calls for it.

After next week's discussion, anyone who wants to be leader in a subsequent week is more than welcome; just let me know.

I think that's it. If I've been unclear about anything, just ask.

issybird · 01-02-2012, 09:30 AM

Two points I wanted to keep separate:

First, I've started the Fagles translation of The Iliad and I find it highly readable, most especially the dialogue, which while majestic also sounds as if real people might have spoken it. If someone is finding the translation he's reading a slog, he might be interested in giving this one a try.

Second, I'm appending a post by Hamlet53 from another thread, in case people don't see it there. (I hope he doesn't mind.) NPR is airing what sounds to be a highly relevant story today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Those participating in the read The Iliad challenge may find this National Public Radio broadcast today of interest. You will have to check your local public radio station schedule to see if and when this will be broadcast. I can tell you that after about 3:00 p.m. CST today the program audio will be available as streaming download. Don't know if the download is available outside of the US?

Homer’s Iliad Retold

Love and war with Achilles, Hector, and Helen of Troy in a hot new telling of Homer’s epic “The Iliad.”

sun surfer · 01-02-2012, 02:52 PM

I searched for the best of the numerous translations and found some good info that many of you may already know, but I thought I'd share it in case anyone is wondering which translation to get.

I found two sites especially helpful, and sometimes, as in the first, help comes from unexpected places. The first is a review on Amazon of a translation that mentions many translations, and the responses to that review. The review and responses can be found here. While I disagree with some of the original reviewers opinions (to say that using the original Greek names is pedantic is silly in my opinion) he or she does give good info on translations and the responses to the review give good counterpoints and some additional info.

The other is a review of translations which can be found here. This review is a bit more objective and helpfully includes samples of the first lines of the Iliad from five popular translations. Just perusing those samples make it clear how very different translations can be, and I especially recommend taking a look at them to get a feel for the different possibilities if you're still deciding.

(ETA - A third site that is also pretty insightful is a message board topic on the subject from another site that can be found here.)

I'll summarise what I've found so far of some translations (and edited to add some info from posts below this one):

You can find prose or verse translations of the Iliad. Generally, verse translations are recommended, though if verse seems too daunting then a prose version may be a more accessible read.

Chapman (free versions available) - Verse. First translation into English from 1611. Heavy, elaborate Elizabethan style rhyme, but some think it still holds up well. Called a masterpiece of its age for its poetic majesty. Inspired Keats.
Pope (free versions available) - Verse. Translated in 1700s. Snappy rhyming couplets. Considered grand and beautiful, but not as plain and straightforward as the original. Some see it as more a work of the poet Pope than the poet Homer.
Leaf, Lang and Myers (free versions available) - Prose. 1891.
Butler (free versions available) - Prose. 1898.
Rieu - Prose. 1950.
Hammond - Prose. 1987.
Lattimore - Verse, 1960s. Strict approach. Long verse lines like the original; attempts pattern and flow of the original Greek hexamter and as such the syntax can seem unnatural in English. Stays as close as possible to the original Greek and tries to retain the epic language. Apparently sometimes uses original Greek names (such as Akhilleus/Kyklops instead of Achilles/Cyclops) which annoy some and delight others, though sometimes uses Latin names as evidenced in the sample in the second link above. Possibly most prosodically precise translation. Sounds most like what Homer's listeners heard but makes for slower reading. Some say reading Lattimore is like reading a textbook. Some say his language may best capture the air of epic events. As close to the original Greek as any translation is likely to ever get. Considered one of the best translations. There is a companion commentary to this translation as an aid to understanding it for beginning readers of the poem, Malcolm Wilcock's Companion to the Iliad.
Fitzgerald - Verse, 1974. More modern, shorter verse line and natural English syntax with more fluid phrasing. Easier and faster to read but still retains nobility. Sometimes uses original Greek names which annoy some and delight others. Possibly most poetically precise rendering. Considered one of the best translations.
Lombardo - Verse, 1990. Lively and colloquial version, short lines, visceral. More "cutting edge" and a style the current generation can relate to and less concerned with a straightforward translation. Sometimes uses modern slang which may be jarring to some.
Fagles - Verse, 1990. Blank verse, modern, rapid, simple, flowing. Uses Latin names (such as Achilles/Cyclops instead of Akhilleus/Kyklops). Some see it as "popcorn" Homer, others see it as one of the best translations; it is popular. Not the most literally accurate translation but its intensity and power may make it closer to the emotional experience of those who first heard it chanted a few thousand years ago. Some think that while others may have produced more faithful translations, Fagles has produced the better English epic poem. Includes notes about characters and cultural references.
Merrill - Some say strikes a balance between Lattimore's fidelity to the rhythm and Fitzgerald's imaginative rendering of the words.
Rouse - Prose. Per BenG, very accessible though translation is loose and colloquial (see post #7 below for more info).
Mitchell - ?

Many opinions narrow it down to simply Lattimore vs Fagles. Those seem to be the two most popular translations of those who've read multiple translations, and they are almost opposites in translation approach. Fitzgerald and Pope are also popular.

After researching, I've personally decided to go with the Lattimore. I definitely tend to prefer more literal translations that are closer to the original language, even if it is harder to read or less vivid. I almost wish I could read Lattimore's, Fagle's and Fitzgerald's simultaneously to see all the differences, but that's just too much for now, so I'm just sticking to Lattimore alone, though if it seems excessively difficult I could possibly switch to another translation.

Happy reading everyone!

toomanybooks · 01-02-2012, 04:14 PM

In addition to traditional Iliad translations, there is the Christopher Logue series of poems based on the Iliad. He did not read Ancient Greek, but he read several translations and created a series of modern poetry interpretations of the Iliad. One book is retitled "All Day Permanent Red" after a Revlon lipstick color. They are a very interesting take on the story.

anjirlly · 01-02-2012, 05:51 PM

I already have the Lattimore (DTB, unfortunately). I wanted to try the Fagles translation, but may instead opt for the new Stephen Mitchell version from the public library.

Nyssa · 01-02-2012, 06:07 PM

I'm using crich70's version from the Patricia Clark Memorial Library.

Quote:

The Iliad of Homer

Translated by Alexander Pope,

with notes by the
Rev. Theodore Alois Buckley, M.A., F.S.A.

and

Flaxman's Designs.

1899

If anyone is familiar with this edition, please tell me your thoughts...Thanks. I did see Sun surfer's note.

BenG · 01-02-2012, 06:12 PM

The W.H.D. Rouse prose translation is probably the most accessible version that I've read. The translation I think is pretty loose and colloquial, i.e. when Hera addresses Zeus, she doesn't say "O dread son of Saturn," instead she says "O you dreadful creature!" which perhaps captures at least one aspect of their relationship better.

Also there's an abridged audiobook of the Fagles translation with Derek Jacobi's excellent reading.

issybird · 01-02-2012, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenG

Also there's an abridged audiobook of the Fagles translation with Derek Jacobi's excellent reading.

Thanks for the tip. I know I'd enjoy it and shall seek it out.

I know I have a DTB Lattimore around here, but I think it means penetrating the dimmer recesses of the basement. *shudder*

sun surfer · 01-02-2012, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenG

The W.H.D. Rouse prose translation is probably the most accessible version that I've read. The translation I think is pretty loose and colloquial, i.e. when Hera addresses Zeus, she doesn't say "O dread son of Saturn," instead she says "O you dreadful creature!" which perhaps captures at least one aspect of their relationship better.

Also there's an abridged audiobook of the Fagles translation with Derek Jacobi's excellent reading.

Thanks BenG. I updated my post above to include some info about Rouse since I had a question mark by it before.

Hamlet53 · 01-02-2012, 07:23 PM

Sun Surfer, thanks for the great analysis of some of the translations that are out there. After having a go at the Leaf, Lang and Myers, the Butler, and the Pope translations I have elected to go with the Pope. I found it the most readable of the three and I also like the consistent rhyming couplets. It just makes the whole thing flow nicely for me.

I've completed the first two books and very soon found it helpful to keep a pad of paper and pencil handy to make a note of the names and brief description of who each was.

BenG · 01-03-2012, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun surfer

Thanks BenG. I updated my post above to include some info about Rouse since I had a question mark by it before.

The Rouse translations of The Iliad and The Odyssey were the first versions of Homer that I read when I was a teenager. I would recommend them to someone who wants a prose translation. The only other version that I've read is the Fagles' translation.

sun surfer · 01-03-2012, 10:01 AM

I started the Lattimore yesterday. I suppose it being Ancient Greek and an epic poem and never reading Homer before, I was expecting something pretty difficult to get through. However, after a few pages of getting into it, I'm finding it an easier, clearer read than I was expecting, which makes me happy.

HarryT · 01-03-2012, 10:34 AM

As someone who can read the Greek original, I have the say that I find the Lattimore translation to be by far the most faithful to the original. It preserves the characteristics of the oral poetry very well indeed.

If you read Pope's "translation" you're basically reading it for Pope's poetry. There's very little of Homer in there.

The Fagle translation is very readable. Less true to the original than Lattimore, but extremely readable. I'd recommend it if you just want to enjoy the story, rather than get the idea of what reading the Greek is really like.

ctol · 01-03-2012, 10:38 AM

And for readers who would like to read it in the original Greek side by side with the English translation I suggest they aquire these two volumes from Harvard University Press. These are from thier Loeb Classical Library editions and are outstanding volumes. I have these two as well as many others and can attest to their quality. They are well worth the asking price would be valuable additions to your personal libraries.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?recid=26617
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?recid=26618

HarryT · 01-03-2012, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctol

And for readers who would like to read it in the original Greek side by side with the English translation I suggest they aquire these two volumes from Harvard University Press. These are from thier Loeb Classical Library editions and are outstanding volumes. I have these two as well as many others and can attest to their quality. They are well worth the asking price would be valuable additions to your personal libraries.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?recid=26617
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?recid=26618

Although the Loeb English translations are pretty dire, don't you think? Talk about "flowery" language!

01-02-2012, 09:22 AM	#1
issybird o saeclum infacetum Posts: 20,229 Karma: 222235366 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: New England Device: H2O, Aura One, PW5	Beware of Greeks Bearing Gifts: Let's talk about The Iliad On January 9, 2012, we begin our long-anticipated discussion of The Iliad. The more the merrier, and all are welcome to jump in at any time. We're going to do this differently from other group reads here at MR, given both the length and perceived difficulty of the text and people's commitments to other group reads, as well as their shiny new resolutions which need tending. We'll start our formal discussion of the first six books in a week, so those who haven't cracked it yet can still take it at an easy pace of about a book a day. I'll post some questions and talking points on January 9, but the thread is open as of now. People should feel free to discuss the book as they're reading it, with any comments, issues or so forth. No need to wait a week. At six books a week, we'll wrap this up in a month, but the timetable can be tweaked in either direction if the consensus calls for it. After next week's discussion, anyone who wants to be leader in a subsequent week is more than welcome; just let me know. I think that's it. If I've been unclear about anything, just ask.

01-02-2012, 02:52 PM	#3
sun surfer languorous autodidact ✦ Posts: 4,235 Karma: 44637926 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: smiling with the rising sun Device: onyx boox poke 2 colour, kindle voyage	I searched for the best of the numerous translations and found some good info that many of you may already know, but I thought I'd share it in case anyone is wondering which translation to get. I found two sites especially helpful, and sometimes, as in the first, help comes from unexpected places. The first is a review on Amazon of a translation that mentions many translations, and the responses to that review. The review and responses can be found here. While I disagree with some of the original reviewers opinions (to say that using the original Greek names is pedantic is silly in my opinion) he or she does give good info on translations and the responses to the review give good counterpoints and some additional info. The other is a review of translations which can be found here. This review is a bit more objective and helpfully includes samples of the first lines of the Iliad from five popular translations. Just perusing those samples make it clear how very different translations can be, and I especially recommend taking a look at them to get a feel for the different possibilities if you're still deciding. (ETA - A third site that is also pretty insightful is a message board topic on the subject from another site that can be found here.) I'll summarise what I've found so far of some translations (and edited to add some info from posts below this one): You can find prose or verse translations of the Iliad. Generally, verse translations are recommended, though if verse seems too daunting then a prose version may be a more accessible read. Chapman (free versions available) - Verse. First translation into English from 1611. Heavy, elaborate Elizabethan style rhyme, but some think it still holds up well. Called a masterpiece of its age for its poetic majesty. Inspired Keats. Pope (free versions available) - Verse. Translated in 1700s. Snappy rhyming couplets. Considered grand and beautiful, but not as plain and straightforward as the original. Some see it as more a work of the poet Pope than the poet Homer. Leaf, Lang and Myers (free versions available) - Prose. 1891. Butler (free versions available) - Prose. 1898. Rieu - Prose. 1950. Hammond - Prose. 1987. Lattimore - Verse, 1960s. Strict approach. Long verse lines like the original; attempts pattern and flow of the original Greek hexamter and as such the syntax can seem unnatural in English. Stays as close as possible to the original Greek and tries to retain the epic language. Apparently sometimes uses original Greek names (such as Akhilleus/Kyklops instead of Achilles/Cyclops) which annoy some and delight others, though sometimes uses Latin names as evidenced in the sample in the second link above. Possibly most prosodically precise translation. Sounds most like what Homer's listeners heard but makes for slower reading. Some say reading Lattimore is like reading a textbook. Some say his language may best capture the air of epic events. As close to the original Greek as any translation is likely to ever get. Considered one of the best translations. There is a companion commentary to this translation as an aid to understanding it for beginning readers of the poem, Malcolm Wilcock's Companion to the Iliad. Fitzgerald - Verse, 1974. More modern, shorter verse line and natural English syntax with more fluid phrasing. Easier and faster to read but still retains nobility. Sometimes uses original Greek names which annoy some and delight others. Possibly most poetically precise rendering. Considered one of the best translations. Lombardo - Verse, 1990. Lively and colloquial version, short lines, visceral. More "cutting edge" and a style the current generation can relate to and less concerned with a straightforward translation. Sometimes uses modern slang which may be jarring to some. Fagles - Verse, 1990. Blank verse, modern, rapid, simple, flowing. Uses Latin names (such as Achilles/Cyclops instead of Akhilleus/Kyklops). Some see it as "popcorn" Homer, others see it as one of the best translations; it is popular. Not the most literally accurate translation but its intensity and power may make it closer to the emotional experience of those who first heard it chanted a few thousand years ago. Some think that while others may have produced more faithful translations, Fagles has produced the better English epic poem. Includes notes about characters and cultural references. Merrill - Some say strikes a balance between Lattimore's fidelity to the rhythm and Fitzgerald's imaginative rendering of the words. Rouse - Prose. Per BenG, very accessible though translation is loose and colloquial (see post #7 below for more info). Mitchell - ? Many opinions narrow it down to simply Lattimore vs Fagles. Those seem to be the two most popular translations of those who've read multiple translations, and they are almost opposites in translation approach. Fitzgerald and Pope are also popular. After researching, I've personally decided to go with the Lattimore. I definitely tend to prefer more literal translations that are closer to the original language, even if it is harder to read or less vivid. I almost wish I could read Lattimore's, Fagle's and Fitzgerald's simultaneously to see all the differences, but that's just too much for now, so I'm just sticking to Lattimore alone, though if it seems excessively difficult I could possibly switch to another translation. Happy reading everyone! Last edited by sun surfer; 01-02-2012 at 07:24 PM. Reason: updated with info from posts below

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01-02-2012, 04:14 PM	#4
toomanybooks Addict Posts: 302 Karma: 1039424 Join Date: Apr 2009 Device: Ipad, Ipod Touch, KIndle Fire	In addition to traditional Iliad translations, there is the Christopher Logue series of poems based on the Iliad. He did not read Ancient Greek, but he read several translations and created a series of modern poetry interpretations of the Iliad. One book is retitled "All Day Permanent Red" after a Revlon lipstick color. They are a very interesting take on the story.

01-02-2012, 05:51 PM	#5
anjirlly Groupie Posts: 155 Karma: 58410 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: SE Michigan Device: Kindle on Android phone; PB360; Sony 950	I already have the Lattimore (DTB, unfortunately). I wanted to try the Fagles translation, but may instead opt for the new Stephen Mitchell version from the public library.

01-02-2012, 06:12 PM	#7
BenG Home Guard Posts: 4,729 Karma: 86721650 Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Alpha Ralpha Boulevard Device: Kindle Oasis 3G, iPhone 6	The W.H.D. Rouse prose translation is probably the most accessible version that I've read. The translation I think is pretty loose and colloquial, i.e. when Hera addresses Zeus, she doesn't say "O dread son of Saturn," instead she says "O you dreadful creature!" which perhaps captures at least one aspect of their relationship better. Also there's an abridged audiobook of the Fagles translation with Derek Jacobi's excellent reading. Last edited by BenG; 01-02-2012 at 06:15 PM.

01-02-2012, 07:23 PM	#10
Hamlet53 Nameless Being	Sun Surfer, thanks for the great analysis of some of the translations that are out there. After having a go at the Leaf, Lang and Myers, the Butler, and the Pope translations I have elected to go with the Pope. I found it the most readable of the three and I also like the consistent rhyming couplets. It just makes the whole thing flow nicely for me. I've completed the first two books and very soon found it helpful to keep a pad of paper and pencil handy to make a note of the names and brief description of who each was.

01-03-2012, 10:01 AM	#12
sun surfer languorous autodidact ✦ Posts: 4,235 Karma: 44637926 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: smiling with the rising sun Device: onyx boox poke 2 colour, kindle voyage	I started the Lattimore yesterday. I suppose it being Ancient Greek and an epic poem and never reading Homer before, I was expecting something pretty difficult to get through. However, after a few pages of getting into it, I'm finding it an easier, clearer read than I was expecting, which makes me happy.

01-03-2012, 10:34 AM	#13
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	As someone who can read the Greek original, I have the say that I find the Lattimore translation to be by far the most faithful to the original. It preserves the characteristics of the oral poetry very well indeed. If you read Pope's "translation" you're basically reading it for Pope's poetry. There's very little of Homer in there. The Fagle translation is very readable. Less true to the original than Lattimore, but extremely readable. I'd recommend it if you just want to enjoy the story, rather than get the idea of what reading the Greek is really like.

01-03-2012, 10:38 AM	#14
ctol Groupie Posts: 152 Karma: 303523 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Arizona Device: Nook, Fire Tablet, Windows RT Tablet Windows Phone	And for readers who would like to read it in the original Greek side by side with the English translation I suggest they aquire these two volumes from Harvard University Press. These are from thier Loeb Classical Library editions and are outstanding volumes. I have these two as well as many others and can attest to their quality. They are well worth the asking price would be valuable additions to your personal libraries. http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?recid=26617 http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?recid=26618

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