Title Troubles. Is it Normal?

[David910]

Originally Posted by gmw

Regarding the ", so violent, that" error, it should be just ", so violent that" - lose the second comma. There are several of these problems in your text. The rules for commas can be vague and confusing, but there are rules. You don't get to throw commas on the page in any way you please. An editor can help you with this - if you are willing to listen to them.

Regarding your excuses for being hazy and vague. Call it whatever you will, if you lose the reader what's the point of the story? The effect you are looking for can still be achieved with clarity, it just takes more work. Tricks like running on paragraphs and sentences to emphasise some aspect of a story or character should be treated like all forms of emphasis - with caution and reserve. When everything is emphasised the emphasis loses its effect.

Regarding the voice. It's told in the first person. You picked that, so you don't get to make excuses for it not being the voice you were looking for. Keep working on it until it matches what you intended.

I don't think you're right with the ",so violent, that". There is an intended paused after "violent" which is achieved with the second comma. I'm sorry if don't like my comma usage. And again, you are making a lot of unfair assumptions without even having read the whole story. Again, a lot of what I'm doing makes sense upon reading the whole thing. I get that some readers won't read on, but then again, those readers aren't also coming to me and telling me how unclear, poorly written, etc. my novella is. I actually think there are some cliffhangers in the "preview" portion that could hook readers in.

But, in general, while I really do appreciate the quick, free edits that you and meera gave me, I think the entire thread has been sidetracked. This was supposed to be a thread about title troubles, after all.

[gmw]

I have the same tendency to insert commas at what seem to be pause points, but it is not the correct usage of a comma. Such use needs to be weeded out, if necessary reworking the text to achieve the desired aim with clarity. That said, I don't consider myself an expert, you would be much better off finding a real editor and listening to them.

A poorly received preview is not going to encourage anyone to go ahead and buy the whole thing. (It didn't convince me.) Very few readers leave reviews, good or bad. I don't know if any ever leave reviews after reading just the preview, I've never seen it. I expect that most of those that get as far as the preview and don't like what they find will just move on - it's what I would have done had I not been discussing this with you here. (Also note that many readers will have less knowledge of spelling and grammar than you do, they may sense something wrong but may not have the knowledge to explain it to you.)

As for whether my assessments are fair ...

You may have heard the saying: "the customer is always right". That goes double for readers. Which does not necessarily mean that they are always correct, just that they are always right. They are entitled to their opinion, and with your book out in the open they are entitled (even expected) to share that opinion. That makes it fair.

I am normally quite reticent about giving such critiques (I'm too aware of my own faults), but your refusal to admit to actual errors seemed to require a response. As meeera indicated, and I reiterate for my part, this feedback has been well intentioned. It began gentle but got stronger the more you resisted the idea that there might be real problems to be addressed. Confidence can be a good thing, being blinkered is generally not (unless you're a horse with a job to do).


Yes, we have gotten off track from discussing titles. I'd like to think this has been helpful to you, beyond the handful of typos you accepted.

[David910]

Originally Posted by gmw

Yes, we have gotten off track from discussing titles. I'd like to think this has been helpful to you, beyond the handful of typos you accepted.

I'm being completely honest when I say that there are fundamental differences in how you/meera and I see the world of self-publishing. You are more focused on the grammar/format/technical aspects while I am more focused on the story itself, sort of throwing some of the things that are important to y'all in order to really make the story as good as it can be, and in the opinion of me, the writer of the story, misused commas are a way to best tell the story. I'm not saying either way is right or wrong, but rather, that our fundamental viewpoint on writing an ebook are totally different.

I respect your viewpoint and will happily make the obvious changes such as the plural issue and the apostrophe issues, but I stand by everything else. Thank you, though, for giving me a lot to think about. - David

[gmw]

What you need to understand is that when you join "the world of self-publishing" you have taken on a second job, you are now a writer and a publisher. Writers write. Publishers publish. You are ignoring your second job.

There is nothing stopping you from writing what you want and and uploading it. Lots of people do that. It's much easier, and much less work. But this is how self-published books have gained a reputation for being of a lesser quality than traditionally published books, a reputation that those of us who want to be taken seriously have been trying to turn around. ... You win some, you lose some.

[David910]

Originally Posted by gmw

What you need to understand is that when you join "the world of self-publishing" you have taken on a second job, you are now a writer and a publisher. Writers write. Publishers publish. You are ignoring your second job.

There is nothing stopping you from writing what you want and and uploading it. Lots of people do that. It's much easier, and much less work. But this is how self-published books have gained a reputation for being of a lesser quality than traditionally published books, a reputation that those of us who want to be taken seriously have been trying to turn around. ... You win some, you lose some.

I find this really disrespectful. Like, really disrespectful. Just because a novella is a little bit rebellious and not the cookie-cutter ebooks that you seem to admire, doesn't mean it is "of a lesser quality" than the more conventional ebooks out there today. I've admitted I think the typos are unacceptable and have changed them, but I also said that I purposely ignored some grammar rules in order to help mold the story that I wanted it to be. I personally think that the book would be of a lesser quality if I followed every grammar rule, but maybe that's just me. You wouldn't know because you have been telling me all about my novella without even reading the full text yourself. You just read a little and started complaining without even taking a step back and at least trying to understand what I was hoping to accomplish in writing the novella in the way I did.

I have no problem with constructive criticism, but you definitely crossed the line with your latest post. To accuse me of lowering the quality of ebooks without even reading what you're talking about is just wrong.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by David910

I have no problem with constructive criticism, but you definitely crossed the line with your latest post. To accuse me of lowering the quality of ebooks without even reading what you're talking about is just wrong.

The best way to get constructive criticism is to (a) work with a professional editor, and LISTEN TO THEM; and/or (b) find a good critique group - one which will actively and thoroughly critique each other instead of blowing smoke up each others' arses - and LISTEN TO THEM.

Good luck with that. I'm out.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by David910

I find this really disrespectful. [...]

Before you get too upset about the level of respect shown in my posts, I would ask you how I should interpret the following quote your previous post:

You are more focused on the grammar/format/technical aspects while I am more focused on the story itself,

And there I was patting myself on the back for my self restraint for not rising to the bait. Damn, all that effort gone to waste.

[David910]

Originally Posted by gmw

Before you get too upset about the level of respect shown in my posts, I would ask you how I should interpret the following quote your previous post:

And there I was patting myself on the back for my self restraint for not rising to the bait. Damn, all that effort gone to waste.

Perhaps I should have said the "flow of the story itself" to make it more clear, but my point remains. I think that the flow of the story and the stylistic choices that I make are more important than having perfect grammar, while you have made it clear that you don't. Not saying that either side is right or wrong, only that we have fundamental differences in our approaches to writing.

[Penforhire]

"...I purposely ignored some grammar rules in order to help mold the story that I wanted it to be."

Cormac McCarthy mostly gets away with this but I still give his books crap for it. When your prose is at his level perhaps you'll be entitled to bend the language. Until then it is just a sign of poor craftsmanship.

I am reminded of a line from Bull Durham --
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes. Think classy, you'll be classy. Win twenty in the show, you can let the fungus grow back on your shower shoes and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win twenty in the show, however, it means you're a slob."

[David910]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

"...I purposely ignored some grammar rules in order to help mold the story that I wanted it to be."

Cormac McCarthy mostly gets away with this but I still give his books crap for it. When your prose is at his level perhaps you'll be entitled to bend the language. Until then it is just a sign of poor craftsmanship.

I am reminded of a line from Bull Durham --
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes. Think classy, you'll be classy. Win twenty in the show, you can let the fungus grow back on your shower shoes and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win twenty in the show, however, it means you're a slob."

I'm sorry you feel this way. I think you are perhaps getting the wrong idea about the novella because of the way a couple fellow posters talked down about it. If haven't even read the novella, then don't complain about my "poor craftsmanship".

[marovada]

It's rough around the edges, but I couldn't help feeling sympathy for the boy.

The sentence and paragraph structure confused me at times. It will take a patient reader to come to grips with this and the grammar may irritate some people. It's difficult for a reader to distinguish between style and error. Where do you draw the line?

If you're going to be unconventional you might be limiting your readership in this regard, whereas editing and refinement will give you a better chance at success.

[David910]

Originally Posted by marovada

It's rough around the edges, but I couldn't help feeling sympathy for the boy.

The sentence and paragraph structure confused me at times. It will take a patient reader to come to grips with this and the grammar may irritate some people. It's difficult for a reader to distinguish between style and error. Where do you draw the line?

If you're going to be unconventional you might be limiting your readership in this regard, whereas editing and refinement will give you a better chance at success.

I REALLY appreciate the constructive criticism without bashing me or telling me "Your grammar sucks, so therefore the novella sucks". I'm starting agree with you in the fact that the unconventional style may be a limiting factor in readership, which I hoped wouldn't be the case, but ultimately I guess I just have to keep forging on, and maybe, if I decide to write again, be maybe not so outlandish with my writing. I also agree that readers who enjoy this will really need to "dive in", which might not be expected from a 99 cent ebook.

I had a story to tell, and when push came to shove, I thought that this style would best tell the story. I realize it might anger some folks, cause some folks to stop reading, and maybe even give me some poor reviews in the future (last I checked, I had only one three-star review), but I made the decision to do it, and I am not going to back down from the decision (besides, obviously, changing typos, which are unacceptable). Thank you for your thoughts. They are much appreciated. - David

[gmw]

Originally Posted by David910

Perhaps I should have said the "flow of the story itself" to make it more clear, but my point remains. I think that the flow of the story and the stylistic choices that I make are more important than having perfect grammar, while you have made it clear that you don't. Not saying that either side is right or wrong, only that we have fundamental differences in our approaches to writing.

You keep missing the point. Good grammar and good story are not mutually exclusive choices. In the past it has been the writer's job to write a good story and the publisher's job to see that it is presented properly. As a self-publisher you undertake both jobs - but you're ignoring the second.

There is nothing in the preview to suggest that the mistakes are deliberate (especially when they have been compounded with actual mistakes), so there has been little to separate your story from others that are uploaded without editing. McCarthy's The Road has been referenced here, but in that the departure from convention is clear and consistent, making it an obviously deliberate choice. This is what you are missing. Your mistakes look like mistakes, not choices. It doesn't have to be like that.

You object to my comments based on the fact that I have only read the preview and that they emphasise the technical. The two go hand-in-hand. Technical comments apply even to short passages of text, and they are much less subjective. Improve the technical aspects of your story and you will improve how the story is received by the reader.

To quote Jane Austen (an author that may have benefited from her editor), from Pride and Prejudice: "Excuse my interference—it was kindly meant."

[David910]

Originally Posted by gmw

You keep missing the point. Good grammar and good story are not mutually exclusive choices. In the past it has been the writer's job to write a good story and the publisher's job to see that it is presented properly. As a self-publisher you undertake both jobs - but you're ignoring the second.

There is nothing in the preview to suggest that the mistakes are deliberate (especially when they have been compounded with actual mistakes), so there has been little to separate your story from others that are uploaded without editing. McCarthy's The Road has been referenced here, but in that the departure from convention is clear and consistent, making it an obviously deliberate choice. This is what you are missing. Your mistakes look like mistakes, not choices. It doesn't have to be like that.

You object to my comments based on the fact that I have only read the preview and that they emphasise the technical. The two go hand-in-hand. Technical comments apply even to short passages of text, and they are much less subjective. Improve the technical aspects of your story and you will improve how the story is received by the reader.

To quote Jane Austen (an author that may have benefited from her editor), from Pride and Prejudice: "Excuse my interference—it was kindly meant."

A lot of what you're saying is not even in line with what is going on in the novella, so it's really no use even discussing this with you since you seem to think that you know more about my writing and novella than I do. Thanks. - David

[ApK]

I usually start with a title (or lede line.)
Unfortunately, I often stop there, too. :-(

Anythewho...

I do think you need to settle on something before publishing, and then leave it alone. At worst, after a decently long period observing sales and comments, you could always 'reissue' with a new cover and a new title as many books do (like the ones that are turned into movies....) and a notation that says "originally published as..."

If you are self-editing, you at least have to put your finished manuscript away for while so it's not fresh in your mind and then re-read it.
THAT should be the time when a particularly evocative phrase or image will stand out to you as a good title.

ApK

p.s. in reading some of your responses here, I feel compelled to point out that you solicited advice on how to encourage readership of this particular work of yours on a public Internet forum.
I don't see anything particularly offensive or disrespectful in the responses.
If you disagree, and whether anyone read the whole work or not is irrelevant.
They see what any prospective reader would see and are telling you what it communicates to them.
Whether you see those comments as constructive or not, in these conditions you might want to limit any reply to something like "Thank you for your opinion" and leave it at that.