DRM protection on purchased books - Page 2

The Old Man · 12-17-2010, 12:11 PM

If I buy a car and lock myself out I cannot drive the car. I employ the skill of a locksmith who unlocks the car for me. I can now drive my car. The locksmith does not own the car or drive it. The locksmith did not do anything illegal!

If I buy an ebook and cannot read it on my device can I hire a computer nerd to unlock the ebook so I can read it on my device? The nerd does not own the ebook or read it. He just returns it to me unlocked. Is there a budding profession here that has yet to be tapped?

KenJackson · 12-17-2010, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Old Man

If I buy a car and lock myself out I cannot drive the car. I employ the skill of a locksmith who unlocks the car for me. ... The locksmith did not do anything illegal!

If I buy an ebook and cannot read it on my device can I hire a computer nerd to unlock the ebook so I can read it on my device? ...

The one caveat is that you own the physical property of the car, while you don't own the copyright on the text you paid to read.

Never-the-less, I regard your analogy to be excellent logic. Very good!

This leads to questions about the morality of laws that make it a crime to unlock text that you paid to read. Such laws seem immoral to me. At a minimum we should vote out anyone who wrote or voted for such a law.

mr ploppy · 12-17-2010, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Old Man

If I buy a car and lock myself out I cannot drive the car. I employ the skill of a locksmith who unlocks the car for me. I can now drive my car. The locksmith does not own the car or drive it. The locksmith did not do anything illegal!

If I buy an ebook and cannot read it on my device can I hire a computer nerd to unlock the ebook so I can read it on my device? The nerd does not own the ebook or read it. He just returns it to me unlocked. Is there a budding profession here that has yet to be tapped?

There was a big clampdown on people who charge to chip consoles here a few years ago, doing the same thing with ebooks would fall foul of the same law.

wallcraft · 12-17-2010, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Old Man

If I buy an ebook and cannot read it on my device can I hire a computer nerd to unlock the ebook so I can read it on my device?

In the US, the DMCA makes this illegal with a maximum penalty of 5 years in federal jail. See DRM: What did you buy? (An Essay.).

Doug Huffman · 12-17-2010, 06:42 PM

I think y'all need to listen to a copyright attorney that you have paid to aggressively advance YOUR interests.

As I-ANAL understand it, the copyright (contra agent's license) prohibitions are on releasing your liberated e-book.

Doogman · 12-17-2010, 10:51 PM

Actually Old Man, when you got home from the car dealer and carefully read all those papers you signed, you found that you had been hood-winked by the slick talking salesman. You didn't buy the car at all, you only rented it. You can drive the car as much as you like, but you don't own it. The title is not in your name.

Even more curiouser is that on close examination of the keys, you find that they are made of a strange type of glass that gets more brittle with age. It might take 5 years or 50, but at some time the keys will break inside the lock rendering the car unusable. You question the dealer about this and he assures you not to worry, for when this happens they will give you another car of the same model for free!

You wonder what would happen if the dealer went out-of-business before your key broke, but you remember that they have been in business for 15 years now so that seems unlikely. Anyway, how long will you keep driving the same car?

You once heard an outlandish rumor about a couple down the street who's car disappeared one night from within their locked garage! They angrily called their dealer, who immediately refunded their money and promised everyone that it would never happen again.

Somewhere in the shady part of town, there's a guy who can completely remove the locks on your car if you still have the key, but you heard this was illegal and immoral so you won't do this. After all, it's just a rental.

In the next town is a secret, illegal car lot with an infinite supply of thousands of car models. None of these cars have locks and they are all free for the taking. The government always issues stern warnings about this illegal car lot, reminding you that these cars are "hot" and that it's a dangerous journey to obtain them. You feel safer driving your rental. Besides, if everyone drove free cars, who would design new ones? Although you have noticed that your favorite car designer died before you were born.

The Old Man · 12-18-2010, 11:40 AM

Well, Doogman, I am not an lawyer, and do not know the complexities of the law but I do know I have titles to both my cars, in my name, and I can sell them to whomever I want and pocket the cash. If that's not owning them I don't know what is.

One of my cars is 16 years old. The key still works fine.

KevinH · 12-18-2010, 11:52 AM

The point is moot since no market for the computer nerd actually exists since the latest versions of the tools to remove the DRM are now so easy to use (gui interfaces, calibre plugins, and even drag and drop applications) that any of your kids should be able to help you with them (if you even need help) and you already pay your kids to mow the lawn and take out the trash, what's one more little thing!

KevinH

The Old Man · 12-18-2010, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinH

The point is moot since no market for the computer nerd actually exists since the latest versions of the tools to remove the DRM are now so easy to use (gui interfaces, calibre plugins, and even drag and drop applications) that any of your kids should be able to help you with them (if you even need help) and you already pay your kids to mow the lawn and take out the trash, what's one more little thing!

KevinH

All true but I suspect that as more and more eReaders are sold that many walk into this purchase unaware of the DRM restriction and that they cannot buy an ebook from just any download store and have it work with their new reader. The first post on this thread demonstrates this.

To continue with my car analogy, it would be like buying a car to find it only worked on certain roads.

mr ploppy · 12-18-2010, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Huffman

I think y'all need to listen to a copyright attorney that you have paid to aggressively advance YOUR interests.

As I-ANAL understand it, the copyright (contra agent's license) prohibitions are on releasing your liberated e-book.

In the UK and America, circumventing copyright protection is a crime. There is no "fair use" get out of jail free card. In the UK, making something available for download without authorisation is a civil matter (though there are plans to make that illegal too).

KevinH · 12-18-2010, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Old Man

All true but I suspect that as more and more eReaders are sold that many walk into this purchase unaware of the DRM restriction and that they cannot buy an ebook from just any download store and have it work with their new reader. The first post on this thread demonstrates this.

To continue with my car analogy, it would be like buying a car to find it only worked on certain roads.

All too true! You are preaching to the "converted" here (pun intended!)

DiapDealer · 12-18-2010, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

In the UK and America, circumventing copyright protection is a crime. There is no "fair use" get out of jail free card.

There is no cut & dried "this is crime" interpretation with regard to removing DRM for personal use. This boils down to whether or not you believe that the DMCA actually supercedes basic Fair Use Copyright law. I don't believe it does (but I think the DMCA wants us to believe it does). The fact that U.S. jails aren't overflowing with Johnny Ebook-Buyers who found a way to transfer their Kindle books to their new Sony reader suggests to me that everything pertaining to Fair Use DRM removal is indeed a very grey area.

Baldrake · 12-18-2010, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jocampo

My father was a judge, passed away long time ago, and he used to say: "Son: dura lex sed lex", which is Latin and means, "Law is harsh but it is the law".

And do you always drive within the speed limit? And if you did some babysitting as a kid, would you file an an income tax return? And did you never have an alcoholic drink before you were of-age?

Just wondering.

abookreader · 12-18-2010, 03:20 PM

So, how many eBook Liberators are currently locked up in our Federal Prison System?

Just wondering.

screwballl · 12-18-2010, 05:52 PM

Its not the ones that unlock the files in their possession that get caught, it is the stupid ones that openly share them with others via filesharing that get caught, although right now they are just going after the movie and music sharers, not the ebook sharers.

Its not the speeder when no cops are around that gets in trouble, it is the ones that got caught speeding that are in trouble.

A much better analogy relating to cars:
You bought and own the car, but you are limited to certain brands and sizes of tires that can be used for it. Sure you can use certain other brands or use tires from a different type of car, but it may not work as well as the brand specifically made for that car. (As a side note, in some states using a non-standard size tire if it is beyond a certain limit is actually illegal.)
You buy and have the right to use the tires but at some point in the future you will either need new tires or have a new car that requires its own type of tires, and there is a good chance your old tires will either not fit, or will just not work anymore.
You should not have to worry about using other tires, but if you make a mold and start copying and giving away or selling these tires, you may get sued or locked up for a while.

12-17-2010, 10:51 PM	#21
Doogman Connoisseur Posts: 52 Karma: 945 Join Date: Jun 2010 Device: Nook ST	It's only a rental. Actually Old Man, when you got home from the car dealer and carefully read all those papers you signed, you found that you had been hood-winked by the slick talking salesman. You didn't buy the car at all, you only rented it. You can drive the car as much as you like, but you don't own it. The title is not in your name. Even more curiouser is that on close examination of the keys, you find that they are made of a strange type of glass that gets more brittle with age. It might take 5 years or 50, but at some time the keys will break inside the lock rendering the car unusable. You question the dealer about this and he assures you not to worry, for when this happens they will give you another car of the same model for free! You wonder what would happen if the dealer went out-of-business before your key broke, but you remember that they have been in business for 15 years now so that seems unlikely. Anyway, how long will you keep driving the same car? You once heard an outlandish rumor about a couple down the street who's car disappeared one night from within their locked garage! They angrily called their dealer, who immediately refunded their money and promised everyone that it would never happen again. Somewhere in the shady part of town, there's a guy who can completely remove the locks on your car if you still have the key, but you heard this was illegal and immoral so you won't do this. After all, it's just a rental. In the next town is a secret, illegal car lot with an infinite supply of thousands of car models. None of these cars have locks and they are all free for the taking. The government always issues stern warnings about this illegal car lot, reminding you that these cars are "hot" and that it's a dangerous journey to obtain them. You feel safer driving your rental. Besides, if everyone drove free cars, who would design new ones? Although you have noticed that your favorite car designer died before you were born.

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12-17-2010, 12:11 PM	#16
The Old Man Fanatic Posts: 525 Karma: 1300001 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Keene, New Hampshire Device: iPad Mini, iPad Pro, Fire 8", iPhone, PaperWhite 2	If I buy a car and lock myself out I cannot drive the car. I employ the skill of a locksmith who unlocks the car for me. I can now drive my car. The locksmith does not own the car or drive it. The locksmith did not do anything illegal! If I buy an ebook and cannot read it on my device can I hire a computer nerd to unlock the ebook so I can read it on my device? The nerd does not own the ebook or read it. He just returns it to me unlocked. Is there a budding profession here that has yet to be tapped?

12-17-2010, 06:42 PM	#20
Doug Huffman Banned Posts: 102 Karma: 7860 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA Device: KINDLE 3 WiFi	I think y'all need to listen to a copyright attorney that you have paid to aggressively advance YOUR interests. As I-ANAL understand it, the copyright (contra agent's license) prohibitions are on releasing your liberated e-book.

12-18-2010, 11:40 AM	#22
The Old Man Fanatic Posts: 525 Karma: 1300001 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Keene, New Hampshire Device: iPad Mini, iPad Pro, Fire 8", iPhone, PaperWhite 2	Well, Doogman, I am not an lawyer, and do not know the complexities of the law but I do know I have titles to both my cars, in my name, and I can sell them to whomever I want and pocket the cash. If that's not owning them I don't know what is. One of my cars is 16 years old. The key still works fine.

12-18-2010, 11:52 AM	#23
KevinH Sigil Developer Posts: 7,633 Karma: 5433388 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: many	The point is moot since no market for the computer nerd actually exists since the latest versions of the tools to remove the DRM are now so easy to use (gui interfaces, calibre plugins, and even drag and drop applications) that any of your kids should be able to help you with them (if you even need help) and you already pay your kids to mow the lawn and take out the trash, what's one more little thing! KevinH

12-18-2010, 03:20 PM	#29
abookreader Wizard Posts: 1,516 Karma: 2567610 Join Date: Oct 2009 Device: Kindles - Keyboard, Fire, 2-US, iPhone, iPAD	So, how many eBook Liberators are currently locked up in our Federal Prison System? Just wondering.

12-18-2010, 05:52 PM	#30
screwballl NewKindler Posts: 504 Karma: 1865773 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: NWFL Device: Kindle3 Wifi	Its not the ones that unlock the files in their possession that get caught, it is the stupid ones that openly share them with others via filesharing that get caught, although right now they are just going after the movie and music sharers, not the ebook sharers. Its not the speeder when no cops are around that gets in trouble, it is the ones that got caught speeding that are in trouble. A much better analogy relating to cars: You bought and own the car, but you are limited to certain brands and sizes of tires that can be used for it. Sure you can use certain other brands or use tires from a different type of car, but it may not work as well as the brand specifically made for that car. (As a side note, in some states using a non-standard size tire if it is beyond a certain limit is actually illegal.) You buy and have the right to use the tires but at some point in the future you will either need new tires or have a new car that requires its own type of tires, and there is a good chance your old tires will either not fit, or will just not work anymore. You should not have to worry about using other tires, but if you make a mold and start copying and giving away or selling these tires, you may get sued or locked up for a while.

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