Whither science fiction ?

[bookfiend]

Originally Posted by BrentKnowles

Second the recommendation for Baen. Some good science fiction titles there. Not sure about the formats available -- I just read them through Stanza on the iPad

Baen's titles come in various formats, and are all DRM-free. So yes, I third the recommendation . It's one of my favorite places to shop. They also have a reasonably priced ARC program, where you can get advance copies in bundles, with new packs coming out every month. And, as others have mentioned, their Free Library has some great books from well known authors, including Heinlein and Bujold.

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by WillAdams

Mercedes Lackey's ``Serrated Edge'' series has elves in a more contemporary setting --- ISTR that there's another series which has literally ``Elves in space'' but am blanking on the name.

Maybe Tanya Huff's Valor MilSF series? One of the alien species gets nicknamed "elves", the same way that Brust's Dragaerans do. But no, you said literally, so that's probably not it.

As for Lackey, that series is very definitely fantasy with only mild vaguely tech elements which go away in the later books. I know this because it falls under the "inexplicably trashy taste" category of favourites I don't recommend, which I mentioned earlier.

Originally Posted by WillAdams

There's also Patricia Kennealy's Keltiad series which is Celts in space.

Yeah, that's definitely got the fairies on an alien planet. I used to read it until the author had this bizarre meltdown.

And now that I think of it, Diane Duane's Stealing the Elf-King's Roses is decidedly sf-slanted, what with the parallel universe access technology and such. But then Duane often puts a lot of sf-ish actual-science-based technobabble explanations even in her fantasy works. Proverbially Clarkeian there.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Some examples of recent works that fall into this perceived stereotype would be appreciated (let's leave Firefly out of it, for now). Either I'm watching the wrong westerns... reading the wrong SF... or both, but I'm not seeing an "abundance of it" in the genre.

I actually haven't noticed many (but then I tend to zero in on the subgenres I favour and ignore anything else that isn't sufficiently interesting), but there has been a lot of steampunk in recent years, much of which seems to be set in frontier situations (Cherie Priest's Clockwork Century or whatever she's calling it).

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I think the genre is just as diverse and intriguing (if not more so) than it ever has been -- unless we're limiting the discussion to post-hegira type space saga's.

Personally, I think there's actually much more variety available in SF/Fantasy these days then there seems to have been in recent decades. This, due to the accumulation of both substantial backlists of previously popular genre variants, and the new stuff coming out.

But where back in the 80s you probably had a selection that was mostly ye olde epic quest adventure, wagon train to the stars, cyberpunk, sword & sorcery, fairy/folk tale rewrite, galactic empire overthrow, near-future earth dystopia, magic in the big city, technology gone horribly wrong, and fun and games with time travel/parallel timelines, nowadays you've got all that and more besides to choose from once you get past the abundance of bandwagon-jumping latest-trend imitation books like the spate of magical/paranormal teens that follow in the wake of Harry Potter and Twilight.

Something for everyone, really.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

With my embracing of ebook technology, I can't resist looking at any free or low price offer, a great number of which are, yes, science fiction.
(snip)
Many of the offerings I have investigated have proved to be, frankly, rubbish - to me, anyway - mainly due to silly plots & characters, bad construction, silly mistakes, and quite honestly terrible writing in general.
The unfortunate thing is, some begin with a vital requirement for a great read - a very good idea, plot, or device.

Methinks the issue is where you're obtaining these "free or low price" books. Are you looking on Smashwords, by chance? I love SF (just for you, Worldwalker) and fantasy, and I've been reading more heavily in fantasy lately, but there seem to be plenty of great books out there.

Aside from the authors you mentioned (Bradbury, Tolkien, Rowling) who else do you like? These three are a rather slim sample, and I'd call two of them fantasy rather than SF. What's funny is that you seem to be lamenting the days of "good" SF (I'm going to take that to mean Golden Age, given the naming of Bradbury), but I associate the Golden Age with great ideas and one-dimensional characters... I enjoy them, and the writing is technically good, but I doubt they're the solid books you remember.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

The era of SF dominated by the Heinleins and Bradburys, etc, was an early, romantic, adolescent period of "anything goes," where the actual science wasn't that important, and the fiction had literally no boundaries.

It's perfectly natural that as the genre grew up, boundaries were indeed recognized, science was seen as an actual limitation and not a license to get away with murder, and stories would have to change to reflect that.

Yes, it's a shame that some of the wild-eyed works of yesteryear will never be seen again. But in their place, new authors are writing new material that can stand toe-to-toe with the rigors of modern SF without blinking... as well as occasionally planting tongue in cheek and taking off on knowing flights of fancy. From Bradbury, we got Gibson. From Heinlein, we got Stephenson. From Clarke, we got Stross.

Much of the references made by the OP are examples of the most commercially-prominent of SF and fantasy out there... but it's hardly all. There is plenty of good modern SF to read and to see.

Something about this discussion makes me remember the day Star Trek: The Motion Picture was released. I'm not thinking about the plot, etc; I'm remembering the early scene in which the viewer is treated to the first sight of the refurbished U.S.S. Enterprise. After having our retinas pre-burned with images of the TV-Enterprise, crude and pixelated and plastic-looking, seeing the new Enterprise, rendered by modern effects and on a big screen, was like being reintroduced to a gawky but favorite cousin you hadn't seen for years, who had grown up to be the most beautiful person you'd ever seen.

That moment, to me, epitomizes the evolution of Science Fiction: It isn't withering... it's growing up before our eyes, losing its innocence, and forcing us to abandon ours. Time to move on.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

That moment, to me, epitomizes the evolution of Science Fiction: It isn't withering... it's growing up before our eyes, losing its innocence, and forcing us to abandon ours. Time to move on.

Hear, hear!

I also think that it's way too easy to become addicted to nostalgia... which paints the history of the genre in a much more favorable light than it may deserve. I fall prey to this occasionally -- and slap myself accordingly. Please don't take that the wrong way. I grew up on golden-age sci-fi and will always love it. I've just accepted the fact that it's quite possible it can be improved upon... without threatening any of my fond memories in the least.

Plus any story can be sliced and diced apart and crammed into a handful of archetypal tropes if you're indiscriminate enough with your literary scalpel.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by WillAdams

Mercedes Lackey's ``Serrated Edge'' series has elves in a more contemporary setting --- ISTR that there's another series which has literally ``Elves in space'' but am blanking on the name.

Ghost Soup Infidel Blue has them. But that's really, really obscure and probably not at all what you're thinking.

The later Elfquest series, Jink and The Rebels, have elves, or evolved-from-elves, in space.

The Warhammer 40k books have elves ("Eldar") in space.

And for tv/movies (and related books)... it just depends on how broad your definition of "elves in space" gets.

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Plus any story can be sliced and diced apart and crammed into a handful of archetypal tropes if you're indiscriminate enough with your literary scalpel.

Personally, that's part of the fun. It's neat to be able to look at, say, Forbidden Planet and realize, "Hey, that's Shakespeare's The Tempest. In SPAAAAACE!!!!!"

I ♥ mash-ups.

[Penforhire]

Well said, Steve! Some of the writing that inspired me as a child is painful for me to read these days. I've come to expect and need more three dimensional characters, more sophisticated plots, and fewer cliches. Oh where did my Conan lust go?

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

Personally, that's part of the fun. It's neat to be able to look at, say, Forbidden Planet and realize, "Hey, that's Shakespeare's The Tempest. In SPAAAAACE!!!!!"

I ♥ mash-ups.

"Piiigggs Iiinnn SSPAAACCEEE!" just ran through my head.

Man I miss The Muppet Show!

@Steven Lyle Jordan: Very good post!

[carpetmojo]

Pardon me saying this, but bloody hell....

I've lost my keenly crafted reply, and have to start all over again, but time or energy may flag tonight, as the huge silver Moon looms oer the lowering dark .......... [ It really is spectacular, I presume we willl all see it in our scattered time zones, don't miss it. ]

But, in short, I posted as I did to get pretty much what I did, a discussion.
I didn't ask for recommendations, but got them, and thank you.

DiapDealer seemed to take offence at my not giving a list of specifics, and being vague - which was rather the point. And I wasn't saying Tolkien/Rowling etc..were good, but that I always enjoyed them, and their quality, and continue to find them so. And I certainly wasn't in the throes of nostalgia, things in general were never better, just different.
Perhaps Diap hasn't fully plumbed the depths of the bargain basement areas of "new" publishing - but there is a laughably huge amount of it.

ATDrake saw what Iwas up to, I think, but I wasn't bemoaning any descent from glory, rahther a comment on what I found in most sources I went to, which were mainly free and low-priced. ( and no, "free" wasn't the point, but I understand the mistake).I wasn't laying down anything about "good" SF.

I enjoyed Belfaborac's contribution, although I am concerned he may miss my reasoning - if that's what it is - for using smilies. Simply, I use them because I can, they amuse me, and I enjoy employing them here and there and, echoing the timbre of Belfaborac's ending, I don't care anyway......

I was tickled by ATDrake's ref to the 80's - don't know if he thought that's when I was referring to - but my grey cells were discovering other worlds in the 50's ! And yes, sorry, Heinlein, and The Foundation were my "torch under the bedclothes" illicit pleasures !

So, deep and many thanks for all the excellent sounding reading tips I now have to commit a sizeable chunk of my immediate future to - so little time, so many worlds.........

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

I didn't ask for recommendations, but got them,

Maybe you got them because you posted your comment in the area designated for reading recommendations?

Just a theory.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

Are there sf clones of Tolkien and Harry Potter? Plenty of fantasy ones, I'd agree, but actual sfnal elves and wizards tend to be fairly rare to begin with.

The only SF I know of involving Elves and Dwarves (& Tolkien) are a series of just two books: The Two-Space War and The Guns of Two-Space. I really enjoyed them — YMMV. Unfortunately the series seems to be at a stand-still.

[DixieGal]

So many of the old scifi stories are still relevant. Writers like Samuel R DeLany wrote about human stories in futuristic or fantasy settings. His stories are still just as enjoyable.

Maybe that is why Asimov and Feinlein, for example, seem so dated. They were more hard scifi, so the technology that moved their stories became outdated?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

DiapDealer seemed to take offence at my not giving a list of specifics, and being vague - which was rather the point. And I wasn't saying Tolkien/Rowling etc..were good, but that I always enjoyed them, and their quality, and continue to find them so. And I certainly wasn't in the throes of nostalgia, things in general were never better, just different.

I wasn't offended at all... I was confused.
You were talking about the state of SciFi and mentioning Fantasy authors and generic tropes that I wasn't coming across in my reading. But I'm glad you were able to glean a few nuggets from the thread anyway.

Perhaps Diap hasn't fully plumbed the depths of the bargain basement areas of "new" publishing - but there is a laughably huge amount of it.

I fully admit that I rarely go dumpster-diving.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Oh where did my Conan lust go?

Probably hanging in the same place as my Doc Savage lust. I agree: Old SF has its fascination, and some is hard to read today.

But not all: I still remember the first time I read Lem's Solaris, and how it rocked me. As Dixie says, not all old SF is hackneyed SF... there was some great stuff done back then that still stands as tall today.