LCD vs. e-ink

[ColdSun]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

I'm 33 years old, so I assume no aging changes yet.

Well, that only tells me much about you...


Do the results of such experiment as the one I just described matter anything to you? Well, they matter to me, more that any bullshit from talking heads with many titles does. It's my head and my headache after all.

What your condescending response tells me about you is that you didn't bother reading the entire thread or read it with a chip on your shoulder because of my statements about LCD and eyestrain. You have eye problems, you made that clear, other than your personal attack, which was childish, you also admit you use LCD monitor without issue. You admit to using CRT that does give you problems. Personally, as you contradict yourself a few times I think your whole post is "bullshit."

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by cfrizz

I suspect you have a medical background...

Biophysics

[ColdSun]

The others are right this is an endless cycle, although I want to be clear that I do not discount anyone's experience with eyestrain (yes even the rude lady above). I stand firm that ebook devices can exist for both sides of the argument and it is personal choice that is the deciding factor (and for some of you a medical reason is clearly part of it).

Later all, have a good chat.

[astra]

Originally Posted by ColdSun

What your condescending response tells me about you is that you didn't bother reading the entire thread or read it with a chip on your shoulder because of my statements about LCD and eyestrain. You have eye problems, you made that clear, other than your personal attack, which was childish, you also admit you use LCD monitor without issue. You admit to using CRT that does give you problems. Personally, as you contradict yourself a few times I think your whole post is "bullshit."

Why are so aggressive in this particular topic? Doesn't matter what people say in other places. As far as I can see in this topic people who prefer eInk ebook readers only say that we get eye strain when spending hours in front of LCD screens and don't have this problem reading off of eInk screen, so we prefer eInk. We don't say it is a rule or a law, just our preference. You, on the other hand, attack people who dare to voice their experience that eInk is easier on their eyes. You practically mauling in your point that LCD is not an issue. That all of us have eyesight problems. You are bullying anyone who disagree with you. Why? Why not leave alone people who believe that eInk is easier on their eyes? Don't we have a right to have our own opinion?

[astra]

Originally Posted by ColdSun

The others are right this is an endless cycle, although I want to be clear that I do not discount anyone's experience with eyestrain (yes even the rude lady above). I stand firm that ebook devices can exist for both sides of the argument and it is personal choice that is the deciding factor (and for some of you a medical reason is clearly part of it).

Later all, have a good chat.

Your posts do not convey it at all.
Maybe if you sleep it over and re-read your posts again you might notice it.

[ColdSun]

I'm not bullying anyone. In fact, Astra, a couple of your posts came off that way towards me. All I did was make statements about LCD, although passionate, were just discussion points. I'm through talking about it now, I apologize to anyone who took my posts personally. Its interesting though, that you chastise my responses and yet you ignore the tone and bad language in the post I responded to. So basically the point I get on the board is "believe as I do or don't say a word." If someone feels passionately about a subject they debate it. That is partially what a discussion board is for. No where in my posts did I make personal attacks, as some here have done to me because I do not feel as they do.

[astra]

Originally Posted by ColdSun

I'm not bullying anyone. In fact, Astra, a couple of your posts came off that way towards me. All I did was make statements about LCD, although passionate, were just discussion points. I'm through talking about it now, I apologize to anyone who took my posts personally. Its interesting though, that you point out my responses and yet you ignore the tone and bad language in the post I responded to.

I will re-read the entire topic now.

[Krystian Galaj]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Maybe you should listen to the talking heads:

"Light Sensitivity: Sensitivity to bright light occurs normally during extremely sunny conditions or when coming out of a dark environment into bright sunlight. Such sensitivity can also be caused by drugs used to dilate the pupils (mydriatics). However, pain resulting from bright light (photophobia) can be a symptom of a migraine headache or a number of eye disorders, for example, those that involve inflammation or infection within the front part of the eye (uveitis), a corneal disorder (such as keratitis), or an eye injury. It may also be due to meningitis (which is also typically accompanied by a severe headache and neck stiffness).

Doctors first try to differentiate light sensitivity from photophobia. The cause of light sensitivity or photophobia can usually be determined by the person's symptoms and an eye examination. A slit lamp examination is particularly useful for detecting disorders that cause photophobia. Light sensitivity and photophobia can be minimized by protecting the eyes from light (for example, by using sunglasses). When photophobia is the result of inflammation within the eye, dilating eye drops can help to relieve pain."

Quite so. So, what does the fact that:
a) my eyes hurt when the only light source is a screen of iPhone, set to minimal brightness, in complete darkness, and
b) they don't hurt when I read on e-Ink, in full sunlight or under bright light of the lamp
tell you about relevance of the symptoms I described to light sensitivity?

Originally Posted by ColdSun

What your condescending response tells me about you is that you didn't bother reading the entire thread or read it with a chip on your shoulder because of my statements about LCD and eyestrain.

Well, yes, sometimes when I see opinions that go with great conviction against simplest facts I observe in the world, I get angry enough to respond.

Originally Posted by ColdSun

You have eye problems, you made that clear, other than your personal attack, which was childish, you also admit you use LCD monitor without issue.

I admit I use LCD monitors with issues, which I have to make efforts to avoid. I also believe (and wrote it) that specific eye problem I have is irrelevant to the eyes' reaction to backlighting (which you chose to ignore).

Originally Posted by ColdSun

You admit to using CRT that does give you problems.

Wrong - I haven't used any for years now. When they were still around, I wasn't able to use them as they caused headaches. Please read more carefully.

Originally Posted by ColdSun

Personally, as you contradict yourself a few times I think your whole post is "bullshit."

Oh yes, I expected you would. And care to give even one example of such contradiction? I thought so

EDIT after some time: Actually, I'm serious - if you see anything in my first post, which contradicts something else in the same post, I'd be glad if you could point it out to me. As almost everything in the post is a summary of what effect reading under various condition has on me, I don't understand how it can be contradictory.

[ColdSun]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

Quite so. So, what does the fact that:
a) my eyes hurt when the only light source is a screen of iPhone, set to minimal brightness, in complete darkness, and
b) they don't hurt when I read on e-Ink, in full sunlight or under bright light of the lamp
tell you about relevance of the symptoms I described to light sensitivity?
Well, yes, sometimes when I see opinions that go with great conviction against simplest facts I observe in the world, I get angry enough to respond.
I admit I use LCD monitors with issues, which I have to make efforts to avoid. I also believe (and wrote it) that specific eye problem I have is irrelevant to the eyes' reaction to backlighting (which you chose to ignore).
Wrong - I haven't used any for years now. When they were still around, I wasn't able to use them as they caused headaches. Please read more carefully.
Oh yes, I expected you would. And care to give even one example of such contradiction? I thought so

You contridict yourself by saying you didn't use CRT, which isn't really true or you wouldn't be able to say it caused problems in the first place and frankly would mean you didn't use a computer at all when CRTs were used, which was the majority of time that computers have existed as LCD is still a new technology. You ignore all the other users in this thread that have the same or similar opinion as mine and chose to come at me instead. Why? Because what I said bothered you. I read your post clearly and understood that you did in fact try CRT monitors in the past or else you would never know you had problems with them. I mean seriously, are you saying you didn't use computers before LCD monitors? What are you using right now? I'm sorry but your post just seems like anger at my statements about LCD not causing eye strain, but it being a medical issue. I'll give you many examples to contradict you. What will you come up with next?

1. I'm 43 and have been using computers since I was 11. First one was a TI-994A, which you likely have never seen in your life. CRT monitor. It never bothered my eyes.
2. Apple 2E - CRT no troubles.
3. various IBM clones - CRT no troubles
4. MAC and PC computers from CRT to LCD - NO PROBLEMS with my eyes
5. Started reading ebooks on my handspring visor. Small, but my eyes never hurt. Greenscreen and backlit.
6. RCA ebook reader. Reading many many books. No problems no headaches.
7. ebookwise-1150 reader. Virtually same machine as RCA. No problems
8. iPAQ PDA - LCD no problems.
9. Sony PRS-505 eink. No backlight, didn't fit my needs. Still have it. No problems. Still like eink.
10. SmartQ7 Tablet LCD - no problems
11. WitsTech A81 Tablet LCD - no problems
12. 2 different ASUS netbooks LCD - no problems
13. SmartV7 Tablet LCD - no problems
14. iPod Touch 3G LCD - beautiful display no problems at all
15. Pandigital Novel LCD - crisp screen, slow interface, no problems with eyes
16. Blackberrys of many models to read, LCD - No problems
17. The above is not the complete list of devices I have used or own. I still have almost all of the hand-held devices on this list.

I'm a programmer. I have been since I was about 15. I am on a computer for way too many hours every day. It started on CRT and now I use LCD. I have 20/20 vision and have no problems. So there you are - my contradiction to your post. Nevermind all the other people here who have been saying the same thing in this thread. Yeah, thats what I thought. And yeah, I'm just like you, I'll defend my point to the end that LCD does not harm your eyes. That eink users do not all want eink screens and may choose something else because the market only released new reading dedicated eink machines for the last few years. That LCD causing eyestrain by itself or will shoot laserbeams into your eyes is a myth. I feel just as passionate about my opinion as you and if you are going to come at me about it you better have some facts of your own, other than your sweet personal preference loaded with misinformation about the technology itself.

P.S. I was ready to stop posting in this thread but you are exactly the kind of eink user that pisses me off. You ignore everyone else here that posted that LCD was fine for them and caused no problems and because YOU have issues with it you dismiss the rest of us. Don't you see that my posts did exactly the same to you? And you got pissed right? Try the shoe on the other foot for a while and see what I mean.

You might find these articles helpful.

http://www.allaboutvision.com/cvs/irritated.htm
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/0...pagemode=print
http://library.thinkquest.org/C0123325/synd.htm

Try adjusting your contrast and brightness to acceptable levels. Change your settings from white background with black text to white text and black background. There are many things you can do. Either way, read those articles and the one at the beginning of this thread and get back to me.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

Quite so. So, what does the fact that:
a) my eyes hurt when the only light source is a screen of iPhone, set to minimal brightness, in complete darkness, and
b) they don't hurt when I read on e-Ink, in full sunlight or under bright light of the lamp
tell you about relevance of the symptoms I described to light sensitivity?

The eye adjusts to the total amount of light. The field of vision is a little different from person to person, but I'm guessing that your hand held device occupies less than 10% of it (this will largely depend on how close it is to your eyes). A computer screen will do more or less the same, since even though it is bigger, it is further away. So if you are reading in a dark room, your eyes will adjust mostly to the environment, trying to get as much light as possible. Beside the size of the FOV, there is also the matter of receptor density, which can also differ from person to person, making it possible for some eyes to adjust more to the light going to the center of the FOV.

For the pain and headache, it isn't necessary that all the receptor cells in your eyes feel the same large number of photons, a small area on your fovea (the part of the retina where the image of letters will be formed) is enough. And at the center of the fovea there are around 150,000 receptors /mm^2.

The fact is that you are not going to read you E-Ink in a completely dark room, and the amount of light that is scattered of the capsules of ink will never rival the light emitted by the LCD in terms of photons/mm^2 on your retina.

[Rebo]

The discussion all started off with a CNET article with the author calling up his own personal ophthalmologist as an expert witness who declares that today’s LCDs will not cause more eye strain. However, I’ll take his statement with a grain of salt. The medical community had insisted Hormone Replacement Therapy f(HRT) for women would not increase the risk of cancer even though there were prevalent statistics supporting the opposite. Finally, a carefully monitored program was administered to a group of poor women by giving them HRT. Midway down the program, a significant number of the poor women in this experiment developed breast, uterus and ovarian cancer and the program was terminated hastily. Even though I personally do not have a problem of working and surfing the web with LCDs, the statistical importance of people stating otherwise in this forum or in other boards cannot be ignored. In fact, the voting poll in the same CNET article shows out of 1236 people who voted, 70% prefer e-ink, 11% prefer LCD and 19% no preference.

I researched the subject more on the internet and most of the discussions are focused on personal experience and a lot of debate. However, I did find the following bio-medical scientific study published in 2006:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/6/303

A study was conducted on 319 light-on test workers of the TFT-LCD display. The study found a high prevalence of eye discomfort among the workers and most common symptoms were eye dryness (43.3%), eye itching (32%), eye pain (11%) and blurred vision (10.3%). A similar study on VDT (video display terminal) workers in Taiwan also found the most prevalent problems were eye strain (82.4%), eye dryness (52.9%), eye itching (52.9%), and blurred vision (50.0%).

Even though common users are different from long term VDT or LCD test workers, the study does seem to support eye strain related problems for some VDT/LCD users. I have preordered a Nook Color so I’ll report back if I have similar eye strain problem reading on the LCD. I have headaches reading with the e-ink or even paper in low light but I do not have problems staring at the LCD at work and from home for 12 to 13 hours a day, However, I haven’t read a book on any LCD reader yet so it might be a totally different experience.

[ColdSun]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_techne...lcd-or-e-paper

http://www.tuaw.com/2010/04/21/ipad-...n-reader-poll/

More interesting reads...

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by Rebo

...I have headaches reading with the e-ink or even paper in low light but I do not have problems staring at the LCD at work and from home for 12 to 13 hours a day, However, I haven’t read a book on any LCD reader yet so it might be a totally different experience.

I would think that anyone would get a headache trying to see in low light or in the dark. I know that I have had that problem. Once no more light is coming through my windows, I start turning on lights. We are asking way too much of ours eyes trying to see in the dark. Our eyes aren't built like that so why do it?

Some of this simply comes down to common sense. We are not cats who's pupils become huge to see in the dark and shrink to slits in very bright light.

If you have trouble seeing, in low light turn on some lights. If you are holding an e-ink close to your face to see clearly, see a doctor about glasses. Take a break from the screen and blink a few times to moisten the eyes, dry eyes = pain/strain. Don't read in the dark whether with an lcd or e-ink. In very bright light outside, wear sunglasses, excessive light can also cause strain & pain.

Don't expect your bodies to do extremely more than they are capable of and then complain when they start hurting.

[astra]

Originally Posted by ColdSun

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_techne...lcd-or-e-paper

More interesting reads...

Nowdays when any brainless and uneducated can publish their thoughts on the Internet it is easy to find an entertaining material

Of course, e-paper has its own trade-offs: Most commercial e-reader displays are black-and-white only, while slow refresh rates — as in a second or so to turn a page — mean that e-paper displays are nowhere near fast enough for video, or even the basic animation necessary to render the scrolling of a Web page.

Why even mention Web surfing when we are talking about ebook reading? It is like complaining why the latest Hammer cannot cross Atlantic ocean.

So, which type of e-reader would you rather have: a dedicated e-paper device with a screen that's great outdoors, has a battery that lasts for days, but can't surf the Web or handle video or color? Or a multipurpose tablet that's a jack-of-all-trades but saddled with the inherent downsides of LCD technology?

They cannot decide what they want to discuss, ebook readers or tablets but they publish their thoughts...

[ColdSun]

Just more stuff taken from other articles. Maybe this can help some LCD people who want a good reading experience:

Here's a tip for long iPad viewing. Balance the brightness of a white page to a white paper reference. In light that would be comfortable for paper reading, place a white paper sample over part of the iPad screen and alter the brightness so it is about the same as the paper. Fatigue comes if you have the iPad screen too bright, and you'd be surprised how often that occurs.