Musing on Apple 2013

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by PatNY

Which app is that? What version?

It's a specialist app, and not available to the public.

There's nothing special or unusual about it from the point of view of springs and struts, however. S&S are perfectly adequate for scalability of many interfaces.

I'm fine with that. As I said, the bulk of my statement is correct. And I believe objective observers would agree with me.

I think the state of affairs that has been in place since well before the start of 2013 is relevant to a discussion in a thread called "Musing on Apple 2013".

We're clearly not going to agree on the value of factual accuracy, so say you say, let's leave it to others to judge.

/JB

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by jbjb

It's a specialist app, and not available to the public.

There's nothing special or unusual about it from the point of view of springs and struts, however. S&S are perfectly adequate for scalability of many interfaces.

Hmmm ... can you name a single consumer app that scaled before iOS6? Or a reference on the internet to a single popular non-esoteric iOS app that scaled before iOS6? Or a reference on the internet to the applicability of scaling to iOS apps before iOS6?

Whether or not S&S are perfectly adequate is beside the point. If it wasn't practical for various reasons -- and it appears that was the case -- then it still rendered iOS before iOS6 essentially a non-scalable interface.

I think the state of affairs that has been in place since well before the start of 2013 is relevant to a discussion in a thread called "Musing on Apple 2013".

We agree on that. Even more relevant is the state of affairs for the bulk of the history of that operating system. And the evidence seems to suggest any scalability before iOS6 was non-existent and/or impractical and rarely if ever used.

--Pat

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by PatNY

Hmmm ... can you name a single consumer app that scaled before iOS6?

There was no need for scalable interfaces before iOS6, Pat, because up to that point there were only two device sizes: iPhone and iPad, so most developers went down the simple route of offering two versions of the app.

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There was no need for scalable interfaces before iOS6, Pat, because up to that point there were only two device sizes: iPhone and iPad, so most developers went down the simple route of offering two versions of the app.

But there were various resolutions among those 2 screen sizes (iPad & iPhone) ... So at some point, you had users using apps with black bands in areas where the artwork couldn't cover the new resolutions.

At any rate, the discussion I am having with jbjb is of a slightly different nature. Not whether or not scalable apps were needed prior to iOS6. But whether iOS before iOS6 was even practically scalable.

--Pat

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by PatNY

At any rate, the discussion I am having with jbjb is of a slightly different nature. Not whether or not scalable apps were needed prior to iOS6. But whether iOS before iOS6 was even practically scalable.

The discussion seems to have morphed towards that, but let's not forget that it started out with your claim that iOS currently doesn't support, and never has supported, scalability in any way, and that this was currently restricting Apple's ability to produce new hardware

We've shown that claim to be false, and your claim has moved from "cannot do it, and could never do it" to "can do it, and always could, though at some point in the past it was more limited."

/JB

[Penforhire]

It was scaleable since at least the launch of the iPhone 4 with its "retina" display. Here's a technical article about multiple scaling methods back in 2011 -- http://renaun.com/blog/2011/03/devel...using-air-2-6/

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by jbjb

The discussion seems to have morphed towards that, but let's not forget that it started out with your claim that iOS currently doesn't support, and never has supported, scalability in any way, and that this was currently restricting Apple's ability to produce new hardware

This is inaccurate. I never said "never has supported" or "in any way."

Here is what I did say, an exact quote:

"I do understand how compatibility with existing apps is always a concern. Apple's iOS can't scale to different screen sizes the way Android can. So every new screen size requires their developers to jump through hoops. That is a limitation of iOS which holds them back on the hardware front. But that is their fault."

And, ironically, that was in reply to leebase who is on the opposite side of the aisle from me, but in agreement with me on this point:

"Two priorities keep Apple at its current size. One handed operation and compatibility with the million apps in the App Store. I suspect the firs priority was the genesis of their choice and the second one keeps them there. If they come up with a great solution to the second we may see them some time in the future."

The fact that this was true only up to iOS6 is besides the point. For the majority of the history of iOS, it was true.

You still have not supported your claim that there was a practical way to scale apps prior to iOS6. Or that anyone ever did it, apart from a clunky attempt for a very esoteric app. Until you do, I stand by my claim that that the majority of my statement was correct.

We've shown that claim to be false, and your claim has moved from "cannot do it, and could never do it" to "can do it, and always could, though at some point in the past it was more limited."

Please, don't purport to quote me without actually doing so. Don't put quotation marks around words that I never used.

I never said those things, and your use of quotation marks there is extremely poor.

--Pat

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by PatNY

Hmmm ... can you name a single consumer app that scaled before iOS6?

Why are only consumer apps relevant?

Or a reference on the internet to a single popular non-esoteric iOS app that scaled before iOS6?

Apps tend not to give details like their use of springs and struts vs auto layout vs hand-scaled on their App Store pages, so it's not clear what sort of evidence would convince you.

Whether or not S&S are perfectly adequate is beside the point. If it wasn't practical for various reasons -- and it appears that was the case -- then it still rendered iOS before iOS6 essentially a non-scalable interface.

This is quite simple - I really don't see where the difficulty in understanding it is coming form.

For some interfaces S&S are perfectly adequate (e.g. the app I referenced above). For some they aren't good enough and auto-layout is required. For yet others, individually crafted optimal UIs for each device type are worth the effort.

All those options are available to iOS developers.

The big difference between iOS and Android is the pain involved in the last of those approaches. There are vastly more combinations of size, resolution and aspect ratio available for android, so covering each of those with a hand-crafted optimal layout is much more painful.

The limited range of iOS devices means that such an approach is, in general, perfectly feasible. Hence many developers choose it. That doesn't, however, mean that they choose it because they don't have the other options available.

Even more relevant is the state of affairs for the bulk of the history of that operating system. And the evidence seems to suggest any scalability before iOS6 was non-existent and/or impractical and rarely if ever used.

The discussion was about your claim that Apple *is* (i.e. now) being held back by lack of UI scalability in iOS. I'd say the state of affairs for the last 2 major releases of the system is more relevant to that discussion than a release two generations out of date.

/JB

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by PatNY

This is inaccurate. I never said "never has supported" or "in any way."

Here is what I did say, an exact quote:

"I do understand how compatibility with existing apps is always a concern. Apple's iOS can't scale to different screen sizes the way Android can. So every new screen size requires their developers to jump through hoops. That is a limitation of iOS which holds them back on the hardware front. But that is their fault."

I read that as saying that iOS can't scale UIs. Is that not what you meant?


What about:

every single time Apple puts out a new screen resolution, their developers have to put out a new version of their app that includes another set of artwork exactly scaled to that new resolution.

The "every single time", "have to" and "exactly scaled" parts of that seem to me to be an assertion that iOS cannot scale interfaces.

You still have not supported your claim that there was a practical way to scale apps prior to iOS6. Or that anyone ever did it, apart from a clunky attempt for a very esoteric app. Until you do, I stand by my claim that that the majority of my statement was correct.

What was clunky about the attempt?

You can disbelieve me if you like, but I can assure you that springs and struts were widely used (and actually still are for some interfaces, despite the presence of auto layout).

Please, don't purport to quote me without actually doing so. Don't put quotation marks around words that I never used.

I never said those things, and your use of quotation marks there is extremely poor.

I thought it was clear from the context that I was paraphrasing. If not, then I apologise - I'll make it more explicit in future.

/JB

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by jbjb

Why are only consumer apps relevant?

Because most companies design and produce for consumers. Apple is not different here. If something is not practical for the bulk of its developers it has no practicality for consumers either.

There are exceptions to everything -- especially when you get into the realm of developers doing things on their own or for private apps.

We are not talking about exceptional cases. We are talking about normal everyday practice.

Apps tend not to give details like their use of springs and struts vs auto layout vs hand-scaled on their App Store pages, so it's not clear what sort of evidence would convince you.

Just name a widely used consumer app that was scalable prior to iOS6. OR reference an article that supports your claim that scalability was practical OR widely used prior to iOS6. What are you afraid of?

For some interfaces S&S are perfectly adequate (e.g. the app I referenced above). For some they aren't good enough and auto-layout is required. For yet others, individually crafted optimal UIs for each device type are worth the effort.

You are side-stepping the issue -- which is whether or not scalability was a practical alternative for the average iOS developer prior to iOS6. If it was not, then that supports my opinion Apple was hesitant to introduce new screen resolutions prior to iOS6 because then their developers would have to introduce new versions of their apps.

All those options are available to iOS developers.

Maybe now. But not prior to iOS6.

The big difference between iOS and Android is the pain involved in the last of those approaches. There are vastly more combinations of size, resolution and aspect ratio available for android, so covering each of those with a hand-crafted optimal layout is much more painful.

Yes, so painful that Android app development has grown faster than iOS development in the last few years!

The discussion was about your claim that Apple *is* (i.e. now) being held back by lack of UI scalability in iOS. I'd say the state of affairs for the last 2 major releases of the system is more relevant to that discussion than a release two generations out of date.

Up to iOS6 -- the BULK of the history of that platform -- what I said (and I wasn't the only one who said it, **cough cough**) is true. The fact that I did qualify my statement later to take into account changes after iOS6 is of minor importance. For the bulk of its history with iOS, Apple was hindered by poor or non-existent app scalability.

--Pat

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by jbjb

I read that as saying that iOS can't scale UIs. Is that not what you meant?

This is what I said and this what I meant (exact quote):

"Apple's iOS can't scale to different screen sizes the way Android can."

Meaning Android apps can easily scale to fit different resolutions and sizes. And iOS apps can't. What about that don't you understand?

I did amend it later to account for the fact that iOS6 finally gave developers a practical way to scale apps. But up until iOS6, the situation was as I described.

What about:


The "every single time", "have to" and "exactly scaled" parts of that seem to me to be an assertion that iOS cannot scale interfaces.

In practice, the situation I described in that sentence was exactly what was happening. Read my exact words. Not what you would like to read into them.

What was clunky about the attempt?

You can disbelieve me if you like, but I can assure you that springs and struts were widely used (and actually still are for some interfaces, despite the presence of auto layout).

I'm assuming it was some clunky private app because you won't even name it. You won't name a single widely used app prior to iOS6 that was scalable. I don't know why you won't support your claim.


--Pat

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by PatNY

Up to iOS6 -- the BULK of the history of that platform -- what I said (and I wasn't the only one who said it, **cough cough**) is true. The fact that I did qualify my statement later to take into account changes after iOS6 is of minor importance. For the bulk of its history with iOS, Apple was hindered by poor or non-existent app scalability.

--Pat

You are ignoring the fact that there was no need for scalability. All the iPhones up to 2010 were the same scale and the iPad was released in 2010 so there was no need to scale. The introduction of the iPad was iOS5 which had some doubling capability to view iPhone apps but there were only two resolution devices available at the time. When there was a need then iOS6 was released with the products that needed scalability. They could have done it earlier since the technology was readily available but the need wasn't there. The first iPhone with a need was the iPhone 4 and the first iPad with a need was the iPad 3. It is hard, I think, to argue that Apple was hindered by this decision. Android, on the other hand release out of the box with a need for different sizes as it was intended to work on a wide variety of devices from different resolutions and sizes. How good it did is a different question.

Dale

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

You are ignoring the fact that there was no need for scalability. All the iPhones up to 2010 were the same scale and the iPad was released in 2010 so there was no need to scale. The introduction of the iPad was iOS5 which had some doubling capability to view iPhone apps but there were only two resolution devices available at the time. When there was a need then iOS6 was released with the products that needed scalability. They could have done it earlier since the technology was readily available but the need wasn't there. The first iPhone with a need was the iPhone 4 and the first iPad with a need was the iPad 3. It is hard, I think, to argue that Apple was hindered by this decision. Android, on the other hand release out of the box with a need for different sizes as it was intended to work on a wide variety of devices from different resolutions and sizes. How good it did is a different question.

Dale

Hi Dale,

That is not being ignored. It's besides the point. As I mentioned in comment #79 above, this particular part of the discussion is not about whether scalability was needed prior to iOS6, but whether prior to that time it was even a practical consideration to build it in (if they wanted to) for most iOS6 developers. I contend it was not. jbjb is arguing it was.

It is related to what you are saying in that we have a chicken-and-egg scenario here. The lack of easy scalability in iOS prior to iOS6 may have been one of the primary reasons that new screen resolutions and sizes were limited back then.

--Pat

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by PatNY

In practice, the situation I described in that sentence was exactly what was happening. Read my exact words. Not what you would like to read into them.

Your exact words were

every single time Apple puts out a new screen resolution, their developers have to put out a new version of their app that includes another set of artwork exactly scaled to that new resolution.

The "every single time" and "have to" parts can only be true if iOS developers have no alternative. As your statement is in the present tense, whether or not it was the case in the past has no bearing on the truth of your statement. It has been shown that there is an alternative, hence your statement is demonstrably false.

I'm assuming it was some clunky private app because you won't even name it.

Your assumption is incorrect - it's a fully professional app.

Who was talking about reading things into other people's words?

You won't name a single widely used app prior to iOS6 that was scalable. I don't know why you won't support your claim.

You haven't addressed my point about what evidence it would take to convince you that an app uses springs and struts in its interface (you can't tell from the outside, you'd need to look at the code).

/JB

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by jbjb

Your exact words were


The "every single time" and "have to" parts can only be true if iOS developers have no alternative. As your statement is in the present tense, whether or not it was the case in the past has no bearing on the truth of your statement. It has been shown that there is an alternative, hence your statement is demonstrably false.

That's not true. If there is no practical easy way to account for scalability, then essentially what I said is correct. Because if there is an alternative, it is not viable.

As for the statement being in the present tense, as I've already said MULTIPLE times, I amended my original position to include the fact that finally Apple gave developers an easy way to include scalability in their apps with iOS6. My statement was true up to the time of iOS6 -- for the majority of the history of that platform. My statement was MOSTLY true, but I did make qualifications to it.

Your assumption is incorrect - it's a fully professional app.

Who was talking about reading things into other people's words?

I made assumptions about the app you referenced but did not describe, but I did not put words into your mouth -- along with false quotes -- the way you tried to do with my statements. There's a big difference there. HUGE.

You haven't addressed my point about what evidence it would take to convince you that an app uses springs and struts in its interface (you can't tell from the outside, you'd need to look at the code).

/JB

Huh? I never tried to argue that iOS apps never used springs and struts in its interface. Where did you get that from? So why would I need convincing of that?

This is what I asked you to prove (exact quote):

"Just name a widely used consumer app that was scalable prior to iOS6. OR reference an article that supports your claim that scalability was practical OR widely used prior to iOS6."

Still waiting.

--Pat