Is there a tool like Sigil to edit mobi ebooks?

[DiapDealer]

Ah, ok, then. Indulge away!

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'm not certain why you seem to have taken issue with my post. Pendantry or semantics aside; I didn't mean to suggest that calibre's method of allowing users to edit AZW3s is somehow suspect or inferior. In any way. I think editing an AZW3 with calibre's editor is perfectly fine--I do it myself from time to time. I just find that many people are under the impression that azw3 is just a standard epub wrapped up in an Amazon package. I like to let people know it's not quite that simple. That's all.

My apologies if I touched a nerve. It wasn't my intention.

I thought it was a bunch of html and css and image and stuff resources wrapped in a binary database wrapper instead of an open ZIP implementation.

So I still don't get what difference you are trying to make. What does it matter how it's unwrapped? And yasher koach that AZW3 doesn't use filenames. That changes what exactly?

What makes this particularly funny is that all this pedantry was activated by my referring to the editor as an alternative to KindleUnpack which suffers all the same problems for all the same reasons, as does a conversion to EPUB.

By all means, pedant away (always fun ) -- but lets be equally pedantic on both sides lest we inadvertently cause far more confusion.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I thought it was a bunch of html and css and image and stuff resources wrapped in a binary database wrapper instead of an open ZIP implementation.

So I still don't get what difference you are trying to make. What does it matter how it's unwrapped? And yasher koach that AZW3 doesn't use filenames. That changes what exactly?

My point was that the markup itself in an azw3 needs to be massaged first (and relieved of its proprietary content) and file names added/created and links rebuilt before editing with calibre's editor. And then the reverse when it's recompiled. That markup massage doesn't happen when THE VERY SAME EDITOR opens an epub file for editing. It's not the same process. That is all.

Originally Posted by eschwartz

By all means, pedant away (always fun ) -- but lets be equally pedantic on both sides lest we inadvertently cause far more confusion.

Both sides of what, exactly? As I said I'm not choosing any "sides". Nor do I think I'm causing more confusion. The fact of the matter is: editing an azw3 is less "direct" than editing an epub (with the very same editor). It involves an extra step where the markup is altered rather than just extracted/opened. That that extra step is necessary is entirely the fault of the format itself.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

Let's apply a bit of reductio ad absurdum to that.

When you edit an epub file you aren't directly editing it either. An EPUB file is really a string of ones and zeros in your computer memory. You really should be editing it with a hex editor. Otherwise you are simply relying on some program, like unzip to convert that string of ones and zeros to a bunch of nice filenames that you can easily edit. Then the zip program compiles all those edited files back into epub's binary database format. Who knows what it's actually doing.

And really, *ones and zeros*. Real men dont use binary. Those ones and zeros are just an abstraction of magnetic particles on your hard disk, you should be using a scanning tunneling microsocope to toggle them individually, otherwise you are using a computer to convert those magnetic particles into ones and zeros for you to edit with a hex editor and then compile those ones and zeros back into magnetic particles.

It's turtles all the way down.

If you want to argue against using calibre's editor to edit azw3 you need to come up with something better than "it's not doing a direct edit". Something like, the editor makes changes to the file that I did not ask it to in the process of converting to/from the azw3 package. Which it does not do.

@Hitch: Why dont you actually try it, first. You will find that when you use the editor to edit an azw3 there will be no "weird flattened css".

Now, Kovid:

You know I adore Calibre, which we use for book cataloging, and even, from time to time, indicate my support in a less intangible way. So to speak. But I, personally, and my firm, overall, don't have any use for AZW3, because it's not uploadable. I'm just a slave, really. Not a master. I makes what they takes. I can't use Calibre, for that reason, and my workflows from source are pretty set. I have processes that work for me. They may not, for all I know, be as efficient as what you'd do; but they suit me.

Nor was I making any value judgments about Calibre, at all. I was pretty much in Diap's court--discussing the whole thing more abstractly. Or pedantically, for that matter. I thought the original discussion, as to what's "intermediate" and what isn't, was a bit off. That was my ENTIRE thought process, and as I said--I didn't want to make it about Calibre, and honestly, didn't give Calibre itself a moment's thought. I was thinking about the idea of "intermediate," from a "how close to the code is it" standpoint.

Period. That's all. I don't want to go down this rabbit's hole. I'm already in some ridiculous pissing contest with some idiot over at the KDP forums who claimed that anyone who says that they are making ebooks with a plain old HTML editor (like NoteTab Pro) is a "liar," and that's gone from bad to worse, so I have ZERO interest in engaging in some pro/anti-Calibre discussion, in which I have no dog in the race, (because I loathe that old saying about the dog in the fight, for obvious reasons), and no strong feelings in either direction. Lord, I thought it was a simple discussion about what constitutes "intermediate," not some landmine waiting to go off. Count me out.

Hitch

[kovidgoyal]

@Hitch: I really dont care whether you want to use the calibre editor or not. I do care when you make incorrect statements about it, however. If you dont want to use it, for whatever reasons, that is fine, but if you do want to make statement about what it does or does not do, you should use it first.

EDIT: And just to be precise, here are your statement that are incorrect

1) The editor does not flatten css
2) Using the editor to edit AZW3 directly is *far more* direct a method of editing a book than editing the EPUB and then running it through kindlegen

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

@Hitch: I really dont care whether you want to use the calibre editor or not. I do care when you make incorrect statements about it, however. If you dont want to use it, for whatever reasons, that is fine, but if you do want to make statement about what it does or does not do, you should use it first.

EDIT: And just to be precise, here are your statement that are incorrect

1) The editor does not flatten css
2) Using the editor to edit AZW3 directly is *far more* direct a method of editing a book than editing the EPUB and then running it through kindlegen

Fine, Kovid.

Whatever. I don't understand why everyone involved in something so inexorably simple as coding HTML and CSS has to get their knickers in a twist about what methods someone else uses, or chooses NOT to use. If Calibre doesn't flatten CSS, GREAT. If the AZW3 method is 'closer' to more direct than editing an ePUB, FINE. It's a process that I cannot use, period, for the exceedingly obvious reasons I already stated. NOR did I ever make ANY statements, WHATSOEVER, about freaking Calibre, which you can confirm by actually reading what I did say, which was MY OPINION that directly editing an ePUB is "less intermediate" than editing a format in Calibre. You disagree. FINE. Obviously, your view of what is "intermediate" and mine aren't the same, but the last time I looked, they weren't hanging people for HAVING OPINIONS.

I would hardly expect that you wouldn't disagree, but really: what's with the freaking vehemence? This has happened numerous times lately--somebody says something offhand about editing an ePUB, or whatever, and suddenly, you're all over them like they shot your dog. You're the father of Calibre, and nobody is shooting the damn dog. You're some techno-genius. We're all impressed.

I'm perfectly happy to NEVER say another word about Calibre, ever, again. Hopefully, that will solve whatever your issue is with me, because seriously, I have NO time, and less interest than I can possibly express, for this type of Net-crap. Jesus h. christ!

Hitch

[kovidgoyal]

I suggest you go back and ACTUALLY READ what you wrote. Quoting you:

I feel as though using a simple ePUB for this purpose is less of an "intermediate" method than using Calibre, for the reasons amply elaborated upon by Diap. What's "intermediate" about an ePUB, all in all? If I make a mobi, and then crack it open, by using an ePUB-->KP or KG, at least what I see when I crank that sucker open is recognizable by me. No weird flattened CSS, (per se) etc. It's the book as I made it--with some "help" from Amazon, of course.

Now go back and ACTUALLY READ what I wrote

And just to be precise, here are your statement that are incorrect

1) The editor does not flatten css
2) Using the editor to edit AZW3 directly is *far more* direct a method of editing a book than editing the EPUB and then running it through kindlegen

And finally, take some time to realize that when you make incorrect statements on a public forum about someone else's work, that someone is perfectly entitled to correct those statements, regardless of whatever disclaimers you prefix your statements with.

[Jellby]

I think Hitch was talking (intentionally or unintentionally) about ebook conversions with calibre, which as far as I remember flatten the CSS, etc. by default.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

I suggest you go back and ACTUALLY READ what you wrote. Quoting you:



Now go back and ACTUALLY READ what I wrote



And finally, take some time to realize that when you make incorrect statements on a public forum about someone else's work, that someone is perfectly entitled to correct those statements, regardless of whatever disclaimers you prefix your statements with.

Kovid:

"I FEEL AS THOUGH..." = "MY OPINION."

Get it? Did I declare I was the Lord on High of ePUB-making? Did I say I was rendering a judgement upon the worthiness of Calibre? NO. I said that MY FEELING WAS that editing an ePUB was "less intermediate" than editing in Calibre. I didn't SAY one goddamned thing about Calibre itself.

And I'm damned if I'm going to sit here and get even more pedantic about what the meaning of "intermediate" is. Jesus, and here I'd hoped that the Rapid-Response-Snakebite ethos of the Net would remain away from MR a little big longer, but I guess I was wrong. Now, I'll have to preface everything with an emoty saying "Oh, GOSH, THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!!!" disclaimers.

Enough of this crap. it was a simple conversation, some people involved in a NICE, vaguely thought-about discussion about different ways to do the same thing. And it had to blow up into this? For what earthly reason? What a waste. After this--and other replies like this one that I've seen this past year on this particular piece of software--I have far less interest now than I EVER had in Calibre as a tool.

Hitch

[kovidgoyal]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Kovid:

"I FEEL AS THOUGH..." = "MY OPINION."

Oh and you have some kind of God given right to express your opinions without anyone being able to disagree with them.

I have far less interest now than I EVER had in Calibre as a tool.

Descending to threats are we? Woe is me, what will calibre ever do with your patronage.

[kovidgoyal]

Originally Posted by Jellby

I think Hitch was talking (intentionally or unintentionally) about ebook conversions with calibre, which as far as I remember flatten the CSS, etc. by default.

Then all she needs to do is say so, it isn't that hard.

[mrmikel]

Mods. Let us ban the word intermediate immediately as having no particular meaning, especially in regard to conversions.

[DiapDealer]

I DO think there's a common misconception that using calibre's editor will result in the same changes to markup/css that happens during a calibre conversion. That's unfortunate and needs to be dispelled. The truth is that in opening, manually editing, and saving an epub; calibre's editor will honor your markup, css, and archive structure (errors and all) more than Sigil will (again, that's not a dig at Sigil). You will sacrifice some of that control if you use any of the automatic (fixing/beautifying) features, but that's the case with Sigil (and any other automated processing) as well. *shrug*

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Jellby

I think Hitch was talking (intentionally or unintentionally) about ebook conversions with calibre, which as far as I remember flatten the CSS, etc. by default.

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

Then all she needs to do is say so, it isn't that hard.

Agreed, and I think it was a matter of accidental confusion, and the issue has now been resolved (to nobody's satisfaction), so can we all agree that to anyone who actually has an AZW3, and wants to edit it without worrying about css flattening or any other non-deliberate changes to the code, the calibre editor is is awesome and at least as useful as KindleUnpack?

And that some people may have reasons specific to their workflow which makes them prefer having an EPUB to start and end with, so that is neither here nor there, although it is indeed true that here too, calibe editor is a very nice alternative to Sigil except that it is still missing saved clips plus people are familiar with Sigil already...

And with that, since it turns out we all agree, and errors of miscommunication have been cleared up, can we stop arguing about nothing?

ohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohno

And let us all remember that pedantry is dangerous and must be treated with kid gloves , because apparently without miles-high neon-red signs warning people, AND about just what exactly is being pedanted about (something noticeably lacking here) EVERYONE gets confused and starts arguing about the moon and green cheese, and things of equal logic and value.

[DiapDealer]

Agreed, and I think it was a matter of accidental confusion, and the issue has now been resolved (to nobody's satisfaction), so can we all agree that to anyone who actually has an AZW3, and wants to edit it without worrying about css flattening or any other non-deliberate changes to the code, the calibre editor is is awesome and at least as useful as KindleUnpack?

Sure.
But for my own part; KindleUnpack, Sigil, or calibre's editor never really factored into it. I was simply responding to your (still incorrect) claim that we had an editor that allows us to "directly" edit an azw3's source.

"Easily", "conveniently", "efficiently", "quickly", "painlessly", or "effectively" would've produced nary a peep outta me.