anyone worried about US borders wrt ebooks?

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

further evidence of the texan plot for world domination.

(oh, and is anyone else worried that pshrynk's reaction to photos of handguns is "oooh, pretty !" ?)

I got my Expert Marksman citation whilst in the Air Force. While I am violently opposed to violence, I do enjoy target shooting. And a nicely executed handgun is, in fact, pretty.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by pshrynk

I got my Expert Marksman citation whilst in the Air Force. While I am violently opposed to violence, I do enjoy target shooting. And a nicely executed handgun is, in fact, pretty.

oxymoron detector : ding ding ding !

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by Olympus

That is what the real issue is: each country have their own interpretation of child-porn. Should I have innocent pictures of my childeren at the beach - the customs can interpret that as childporn.
Currently Italy has forbidden parents for taking pictures of their children in the swimming pool. In the Netherlands we have had discussions of art could be interpreted as (kiddy)porn. Should I have holiday pictures of (half) naked man/woman it could be considered porn - however even in de US you must have naturists and nudists.

Once the customs get access to my personal data/pictures/art I can get into these kind of discussions. Unfortunately it's the US that creates these ineffective measures:
- access to all personal data of anyone that takes a plane and store this ( for 15??? years)
- access to all creditcard data from Euopean citizens to .... (create a blacklist for the US border ??).

And in return the EU is requesting the same information from the US as countermeasure.

Any references to Anne-Frank I consider rather off-topic and offensive.

As mentioned in my signature, I am frequently off topic, and I fully intended the reference to be offensive. If anyone from any country chooses to argue about Constitutional or human rights with me, I am going to pull out every offense against human rights perpetrated by that poster's particular country and toss it right back at them.

Of course every country has different laws about what does or does not constitute porn. And, if planning a trip to that country, I would suggest to any traveler that they have the common sense to find out what that is.

It is illegal to bring a Bible into many Muslim counties. So, if you are traveling to a Muslim country, it might be wise to remove your copy of the Bible from your digital reader lest you end up with your ass in jail.

If you like to keep lots of photos of naked men, women and children on your laptop ... again, might be a good idea to back them up at home and LEAVE them there during your trip if you are not certain whether possessing them is a crime.

It's a big world. Lots of different laws in lots of different countries. If you plan to travel a lot, it would be wise to get used to that.

Now, as to searching laptops for child porn, if the Netherlands makes sexual intercourse with minors and exploitation of sexual abuse perfectly legal ... then all I can say is "lovely" with a great deal of sarcasm. The people that Customs are generally targeting for laptop searches are those that are just plain notorious for "Child Sex Excursions." If you are returning to the US from one of those countries, you can pretty much bet they are going to search your laptop for photos of your exploits. You say the Netherlands is NOT one of those countries?? Then, really, they don't much care about photos of your naked two year old running through the sprinklers. Those are not considered "child porn" or even "porn" in the US.

Neither, in the US, are pictures of naked men and/or women generally. Even pictures depicting intercourse are not generally illegal as long as it is clear from the photo that the participants are not minors. It is illegal here to sexually exploit anyone under the age of eighteen (which is the age of consent in most jurisdictions).

If you are going to Italy, you've got a whole "nother" set of problems that I feel absolutely nothing about because I don't live there and I seldom travel there.

So ... if you are not willing to deal with the problems of international travel, by all means stay home. Otherwise, have the sense to respect the laws of those countries to which you travel.

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by Olympus

In the Netherlands we have had discussions of art could be interpreted as (kiddy)porn.

Also of note: the Groninger Museum has about 2 rooms dedicated to photographs of people's faces, and an Arts student told me that another photographer was considering capturing on film the expressions on women's (presumably, as our society seems somewhat biased there) faces as they were experiencing orgasm.

In fact, some of the expressions on the faces of the - often rather young-looking - females in that exhibition (gotta love the word) were rather suggestive anyway, something that struck me as odd/trite at the time, as their faces suggested they were around age 16, and as such "meant" to be "provocative". (or whatever apologist description of that inclination applies here)
And while I suppose it would be ahistorical/naïve to say that art wasn't about the female shape in the past, I do have to say that it annoys me tremendously how artists (claiming "artistic expression" rights, whatever those are) are using everything as a justification for producing porn (that is, i fail to see what would be the difference between a website like BeautifulAgony and this "topic" for an "exhibition" in a regular museum.)

There is nothing wrong with discoursing about the use of art (in fact, the only way to decide whether something is art rather than kitsch is through discourse), and talking about sex is reputedly therapeutic, or at least can take away fear about the subject (see your local library for the collected works of M. Foucault), it has to be possible to decide that some stuff is crap and shouldn't be subsidized or mandatorily bought by museums that are required by law to invest at least an x amount each year in "modern" art.. While Bieito might draw crowds to the opera, i'm not sure it really adds something useful to the Wirkungsgeschichte of the Seraglio to have him direct it.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Also of note: the Groninger Museum has about 2 rooms dedicated to photographs of people's faces, and an Arts student told me that another photographer was considering capturing on film the expressions on women's (presumably, as our society seems somewhat biased there) faces as they were experiencing orgasm.

In fact, some of the expressions on the faces of the - often rather young-looking - females in that exhibition (gotta love the word) were rather suggestive anyway, something that struck me as odd/trite at the time, as their faces suggested they were around age 16, and as such "meant" to be "provocative". (or whatever apologist description of that inclination applies here)
And while I suppose it would be ahistorical/naïve to say that art wasn't about the female shape in the past, I do have to say that it annoys me tremendously how artists (claiming "artistic expression" rights, whatever those are) are using everything as a justification for producing porn (that is, i fail to see what would be the difference between a website like BeautifulAgony and this "topic" for an "exhibition" in a regular museum.)

There is nothing wrong with discoursing about the use of art (in fact, the only way to decide whether something is art rather than kitsch is through discourse), and talking about sex is reputedly therapeutic, or at least can take away fear about the subject (see your local library for the collected works of M. Foucault), it has to be possible to decide that some stuff is crap and shouldn't be subsidized or mandatorily bought by museums that are required by law to invest at least an x amount each year in "modern" art.. While Bieito might draw crowds to the opera, i'm not sure it really adds something useful to the Wirkungsgeschichte of the Seraglio to have him direct it.

The interesting thing about "porn" or even "kiddie porn" is that both are really a bell curve. And each culture draws its distinctions at different points on that curve.

Faces of young women supposedly having an orgasm?? Well, if it's just the face, and nothing else, in this country it probably wouldn't matter how suggestive the photo was ... if there was no (1) nudity, (2) depiction of the genitals, (3) depiction of the actual sex act, and (4) a clearly under the age of consent model ... then odds are it is not going to be treated as kiddie porn in this country. Somewhere else?? Possible, I suppose.

For the most part, the sort of stuff they are working hard to combat are things that could never be mistaken for family photos or art. Unless your family photos include the missus and your four year old daughter engaged in sex acts with a German Shepherd (and I am not talking about a citizen of Germany who herds sheep). Please note, that is considered to be "cruelty to animals" and a "crime against nature" and "child abuse" ... doesn't matter that the missus is of age. Doesn't matter that you are the parent of the child. Doesn't even matter if you took the photos in some ultra liberal part of the world where all those acts are legal. Bringing the photos of that activity into this country is emphatically NOT.

Probably the biggest targets for these types of search are people who are (1) registered sex offenders, (2) returning from places such as Thailand where child prostitution is a gigantic problem (and sadly a lucrative industry). It's not much different from being a known drug smuggler, or fitting the profile of a drug mule, and coming back from Columbia with a lot of suspicious lumps under your clothing. You're going to get searched ... I can practically guarantee it.

You know, I don't know whether to laugh or cry when people start going on and on about the "land of the free." It's a line from a freaking poem written by one man in a very patriotic moment after witnessing a battle and seeing that his country had at least survived that one night. It is not a phrase that is enshrined in any of the documents that govern this country and it does not have the force of law. The United States is a country of laws, first, last and foremost. Even the various States have laws that contradict each other right left and sideways (just ask any gay person trying to legally marry their significant other). If you don't think reducing the United States to a single slogan is offensive (and I realize that you, personally did not do this ... I am actually referring to those posting from the Netherlands), then be prepared to have your perception of reality tweaked.

[acidzebra]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

I am actually referring to those posting from the Netherlands), then be prepared to have your perception of reality tweaked.

My reality was not so much tweaked as I much as I had some stereotypes strengthened. The geocities business page was funny, though.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

The interesting thing about "porn" or even "kiddie porn" is that both are really a bell curve. And each culture draws its distinctions at different points on that curve.

Precisely. Among other things, the answer to "How old is old enough?" may change, and can be different in different regions within a country.

For example, in the 1950's, country singer Jerry Lee Lewis was a rising teen pop star, mentioned in the same conversation with Buddy Holly, Richie Valens, and the Big Bopper. Then the word got out that he'd married his thirteen year old cousin. That was both legal and accepted behavior in the area he came from. He found out the hard way the rest of the US did not share those perceptions, and his career came to a screeching halt.

In the late '60s and early 70's, it was legal to produce child pornography in Denmark, and legal to sell it in the US. Magazines like "Lolita Love" and "Piccolo" were prominent examples. (And scans from those old publications still float around the Internet.)

I don't believe Russia has laws specifically prohibiting child pornography, so there a variety of subscription oriented websites hosted in Russia and the Ukraine featuring softcore nude photos of underage girls and boys. How long they last seems connected to how good they are about greasing the right palms.

And Japan used to have a thriving industry in publications sold on newsstands, devoted to photos of underage girls and boys, from preteen on up, both clothed and nude. The Japanese government made it illegal a few years back, but my impression was that their motivation was far more concern with what other countries might think than with any with any inherent feeling it was wrong.

Faces of young women supposedly having an orgasm?? Well, if it's just the face, and nothing else, in this country it probably wouldn't matter how suggestive the photo was ... if there was no (1) nudity, (2) depiction of the genitals, (3) depiction of the actual sex act, and (4) a clearly under the age of consent model ... then odds are it is not going to be treated as kiddie porn in this country. Somewhere else?? Possible, I suppose.

As mentioned upthread, there is a website devoted of photos of the faces of people having orgasms. The "clearly under the age of consent model" gets thorny if the woman looks young enough, and most sites in that territory keep careful documentation and signed release forms on file.

The US is very much in an anti phase about anything that might be considered child pornography these days, regardless of how innocuous it is. There are an assortment of child model websites offering subscriptions to photo shoots. The kids are either fully dressed or in swimsuits, with no sexual content, but they get flak apparently because someone out there might find the photos arousing. "It's porn because the perv down the street might get off on it!" seems to be the definition.

Someone in New York State noticed that people were posting kiddie porn images in unused Usenet binary newsgroups, and announced an investigation. The ISPs all promised cooperation. Some blocked the specific groups used, or stopped carrying the binary groups. Mine decided the simplest solution was to stop carrying newgroups entirely, of any kind. That didn't much affect me, because most newsgoups I read come from dedicated servers unconnected with Usenet or my ISP, and I only had to find a new source for one group dedicated to sysadmins, but that sort of action is annoying.

And there are occasional protests around here by people upset that Barnes and Noble carries work in the Photography section by Sally Mann, Jock Sturges, and David Hamilton.

I hope we get over that particular hysteria sooner rather than later.
______
Dennis

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by acidzebra

My reality was not so much tweaked as I much as I had some stereotypes strengthened. The geocities business page was funny, though.

The geocities business page?? OK ... I'll bite, I have no idea what you are talking about. Seriously, no idea at all. And, you might be making a valid point about something ... such as stereotypes, for example ... but the point won't be made if I have no idea what you mean.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Precisely. Among other things, the answer to "How old is old enough?" may change, and can be different in different regions within a country.

For example, in the 1950's, country singer Jerry Lee Lewis was a rising teen pop star, mentioned in the same conversation with Buddy Holly, Richie Valens, and the Big Bopper. Then the word got out that he'd married his thirteen year old cousin. That was both legal and accepted behavior in the area he came from. He found out the hard way the rest of the US did not share those perceptions, and his career came to a screeching halt.

In the late '60s and early 70's, it was legal to produce child pornography in Denmark, and legal to sell it in the US. Magazines like "Lolita Love" and "Piccolo" were prominent examples. (And scans from those old publications still float around the Internet.)

I don't believe Russia has laws specifically prohibiting child pornography, so there a variety of subscription oriented websites hosted in Russia and the Ukraine featuring softcore nude photos of underage girls and boys. How long they last seems connected to how good they are about greasing the right palms.

And Japan used to have a thriving industry in publications sold on newsstands, devoted to photos of underage girls and boys, from preteen on up, both clothed and nude. The Japanese government made it illegal a few years back, but my impression was that their motivation was far more concern with what other countries might think than with any with any inherent feeling it was wrong.


As mentioned upthread, there is a website devoted of photos of the faces of people having orgasms. The "clearly under the age of consent model" gets thorny if the woman looks young enough, and most sites in that territory keep careful documentation and signed release forms on file.

The US is very much in an anti phase about anything that might be considered child pornography these days, regardless of how innocuous it is. There are an assortment of child model websites offering subscriptions to photo shoots. The kids are either fully dressed or in swimsuits, with no sexual content, but they get flak apparently because someone out there might find the photos arousing. "It's porn because the perv down the street might get off on it!" seems to be the definition.

Someone in New York State noticed that people were posting kiddie porn images in unused Usenet binary newsgroups, and announced an investigation. The ISPs all promised cooperation. Some blocked the specific groups used, or stopped carrying the binary groups. Mine decided the simplest solution was to stop carrying newgroups entirely, of any kind. That didn't much affect me, because most newsgoups I read come from dedicated servers unconnected with Usenet or my ISP, and I only had to find a new source for one group dedicated to sysadmins, but that sort of action is annoying.

And there are occasional protests around here by people upset that Barnes and Noble carries work in the Photography section by Sally Mann, Jock Sturges, and David Hamilton.

I hope we get over that particular hysteria sooner rather than later.
______
Dennis

Absolutely ... no argument with any of that. I really doubt whether any rational person in any civilized country (or even an uncivilized one) would try to defend photographic images of a four year old being forcibly raped as anything other than porn ... and a crime against the child.

Now, marriage to your 13 year old cousin may be taboo in some places, and totally accepted in others.

Another good reason to do a bit of research before you find yourself in jail in another country for doing something that wouldn't even cause a batted eyelash in your own.

And, honestly, there is no good going to come of anyone whining and moaning about it. I could bitch to the high heavens about my "right" to take a Bible anywhere I want (although I am emphatically not a Christian ... I still find the tome fascinating and do, at times, read it ... if only to silently argue with Saul of Tarsus -- St. Paul to those of you not acquainted ... a bit of a misogynist IMO), it's not going to change the policies in Saudi Arabia.

Getting up in arms about a new US Customs policy, instead of understanding it .. what it is attempting to do ... and what, if any, practical impact it will actually have on you, is counterproductive and tends to lead to a bunch of people being convinced that their ebook reader or laptop is going to be confiscated because they can't absolutely PROVE they legally purchased their copy of "Huckleberry Finn."

Ummm .... they are not going to do that, if you really believe they are going to do that, do NOT .... I repeat ... DO NOT even think about leaving your home ... ever. You are not completely equipped to deal with the outside world. Make yourself a nice foil hat and join the rest of the crowd in paying pshrynk's laddie at the door.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Absolutely ... no argument with any of that. I really doubt whether any rational person in any civilized country (or even an uncivilized one) would try to defend photographic images of a four year old being forcibly raped as anything other than porn ... and a crime against the child.

Agreed, and I've seen a bit of that. I have daydreams about finding the rapist. He'll find it hard to do it again if he no longer possesses the equipment...

Now, marriage to your 13 year old cousin may be taboo in some places, and totally accepted in others.

Which is all part of the fun of globalization, as cultures where the opinions differ meet and mingle. Consider the cultures where arranged marriage is accepted practice, and kids may be betrothed to each other well before puberty, because it's seen as in the interests of their respective families.

Another good reason to do a bit of research before you find yourself in jail in another country for doing something that wouldn't even cause a batted eyelash in your own.

That describes my attitude about the chap mortally offended about being told to take his camera across the street in Washington, DC. If I travel to another country, I am on someone else's turf, expected to play by their rules. I'm well advised to find out what those rules are before I go, and should not expect sympathy if I break them through ignorance.

Getting up in arms about a new US Customs policy, instead of understanding it .. what it is attempting to do ... and what, if any, practical impact it will actually have on you, is counterproductive and tends to lead to a bunch of people being convinced that their ebook reader or laptop is going to be confiscated because they can't absolutely PROVE they legally purchased their copy of "Huckleberry Finn."

As though the TSA will even look, or have any way of knowing whether it's a legit copy, or care one way or the other. They won't.

Ummm .... they are not going to do that, if you really believe they are going to do that, do NOT .... I repeat ... DO NOT even think about leaving your home ... ever. You are not completely equipped to deal with the outside world. Make yourself a nice foil hat and join the rest of the crowd in paying pshrynk's laddie at the door.

I've encountered some of the tin foil hat crowd elsewhere. As mentioned before, my response is "You wish you were important enough that anyone could be bothered to spy on you!". And I think that's precisely their problem: classical paranoia is a defense mechanism against feelings of insignificance and inferiority. If everyone is out to get you, hey! You're important! You matter! Someone cares enough about you to go through the trouble of trying to get you!

I'm not important. I don't matter. No one is interested in what I do. I like that.
______
Dennis

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Agreed, and I've seen a bit of that. I have daydreams about finding the rapist. He'll find it hard to do it again if he no longer possesses the equipment...


Which is all part of the fun of globalization, as cultures where the opinions differ meet and mingle. Consider the cultures where arranged marriage is accepted practice, and kids may be betrothed to each other well before puberty, because it's seen as in the interests of their respective families.


That describes my attitude about the chap mortally offended about being told to take his camera across the street in Washington, DC. If I travel to another country, I am on someone else's turf, expected to play by their rules. I'm well advised to find out what those rules are before I go, and should not expect sympathy if I break them through ignorance.


As though the TSA will even look, or have any way of knowing whether it's a legit copy, or care one way or the other. They won't.


I've encountered some of the tin foil hat crowd elsewhere. As mentioned before, my response is "You wish you were important enough that anyone could be bothered to spy on you!". And I think that's precisely their problem: classical paranoia is a defense mechanism against feelings of insignificance and inferiority. If everyone is out to get you, hey! You're important! You matter! Someone cares enough about you to go through the trouble of trying to get you!

I'm not important. I don't matter. No one is interested in what I do. I like that.
______
Dennis

Now see ... there are times when I disagree with you Dennis .... this just isn't one of them.

You will enjoy this. Several of my cat crazy friends have our own chat room where we hang out just to act ... well, crazy. We all pretend we are our cats and we just have a ball. (Yes .... it's nuts .... I know it ... move on.)

Some of this crowd is on the young side. I think our youngest member is about 12 or 13. Most of us are of the Geritol generation ... but we are a motley crew (we've got a 60 year old male biker dude, and a lesbian physician, and right wingers, left wingers ... you name it).

So, we are all chatting away having a grand ol' time and this sleeze ball pedophile pops into "our" chat room. You can tell the type from a mile away, and he's trying to find out how old we all are, and what sort of "sexual experiences" we've had. So, since all of the regulars are very protective of our younger members ... we immediately began to reply as our cats. So .... I was suddenly "12 years old and I'm black. My mom had me neutered when I was just a few months old, so I'm not real sure what you mean about "sex." Sometimes people say it's about sleeping with people, but I sleep with my mom and all my sisters and brothers every night ... and we just sleep. If you want to come over to our house, my mom will get you neutered too. She thinks that sort of thing is really important."

By the time we finished with that one, he was screaming for the exits.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

So, we are all chatting away having a grand ol' time and this sleeze ball pedophile pops into "our" chat room. You can tell the type from a mile away, and he's trying to find out how old we all are, and what sort of "sexual experiences" we've had. So, since all of the regulars are very protective of our younger members ... we immediately began to reply as our cats. So .... I was suddenly "12 years old and I'm black. My mom had me neutered when I was just a few months old, so I'm not real sure what you mean about "sex." Sometimes people say it's about sleeping with people, but I sleep with my mom and all my sisters and brothers every night ... and we just sleep. If you want to come over to our house, my mom will get you neutered too. She thinks that sort of thing is really important."

By the time we finished with that one, he was screaming for the exits.

<guffaw>

I don't hang out in chat rooms, but that's hilarious.

There was a publicized case a while back that bemused me. A chap who was an SVP at a prominent Internet company met what he thought was a 13 year old girl in a chat room. He gave her his office and cell phone numbers to reach him, and arranged to meet her.

He got busted when he arrived, carrying a laptop full of images of underage girls among other things. It was a sting. Other folks in that chat room said "Dude! You don't know that's a 13 year old girl! It could be a cop running a sting!", but he was fixated, and believed what he wanted to believe.

I never found out what finally happened, but worst case, his cell mate Bubba has thoroughly cured him of any illusions, and he's not anal retentive any more...
______
Dennis

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

<guffaw>

I don't hang out in chat rooms, but that's hilarious.

There was a publicized case a while back that bemused me. A chap who was an SVP at a prominent Internet company met what he thought was a 13 year old girl in a chat room. He gave her his office and cell phone numbers to reach him, and arranged to meet her.

He got busted when he arrived, carrying a laptop full of images of underage girls among other things. It was a sting. Other folks in that chat room said "Dude! You don't know that's a 13 year old girl! It could be a cop running a sting!", but he was fixated, and believed what he wanted to believe.

I never found out what finally happened, but worst case, his cell mate Bubba has thoroughly cured him of any illusions, and he's not anal retentive any more...
______
Dennis

Love it .... love it .... LOVE ... IT!!

Back when I was dating the man from NCIS, his team did a lot of work trapping pedophiles in the military. They pulled in one rather high ranking officer and his wife for disseminating child porn. As I recall he got hit by a car while trying to escape on foot across the 5 freeway. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person.

One of his team members was this great agent ... female, about 22 or 23, but you would swear she was 12. She was the decoy, and she could shoot a guy's eye out at several hundred yards. What she did was dangerous work, but every time they caught one I just felt soooo good.

[joblack]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

Don't worry about it, but be sure you don't have anything illegal on there - a good rule to live by!

Yeah yeah ... always be a good citizen and swallow every toad you can find.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by joblack

Yeah yeah ... always be a good citizen and swallow every toad you can find.

Ok ..... you guys are doing it again. Either these comments are waaaay over my head and really really funny, or ..... nope, forget the alternative.

So, would someone please take a moment and explain the humor behind "geocities business page" and swallowing toads??

It's bad enough I can't remember a good joke, worse when I don't even get them.