Classic The nook is bad for eBooks

[stangri]

Well, the point is, nook has better support for epub, thus nook is good for ebooks. Hence, the topic is a lie.

Let's say you bought a digital camera which takes AA batteries and then a few years later Energizer makes Lithium AA (or Rayovac makes rechargeable alkalines, or whatever) batteries and you find out they don't work in your camera. I don't see how Energizer is at fault.

B&N sells you a digital product and provides you with a variety of ways to avail of it: for free on Windows/Mac/iPhone or on the paid specialty device. On the front page of the e-book section (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/ebooks/index.asp) there's a box on the right which lists your options. You choose to ignore this and complain that it's not readable on the device which core software hasn't been updated for years.

I don't see how anything is implied. Since when the "ebook" implies it can be read on any freaking device? On the first ebook page I've looked at (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/I-A...4538&inframe=y), immediately below "Available for download" it again lists your options and there's a link for additional details.

You believe that they *must* put a warning that the content might not be readable on other devices and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Still, nook has better support for epub, thus nook is good for ebooks. Hence, the topic is a lie.

The fact that B&N does not issue refunds for people who paid for content with the assumption they'd be able to read it with outdated software is shameful, but it doesn't make the topic any less lie.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by stangri

Well, the point is, nook has better support for epub, thus nook is good for ebooks.
.....

That's an opinion, not a fact.

There is no difference in epub, the difference is in the DRM that is applied to it. What would be better for epub would be no drm at all!

[GJN]

I guess that not all ePubs are equal and the nook isn't quite as open as advertised. Oh well, someday we'll get a standard format that will fit all readers and make us, the authors, and the publishers all happy. I just hope I live that long.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by stangri

Well, the point is, nook has better support for epub, thus nook is good for ebooks. Hence, the topic is a lie.

The topic is not a lie. B&N came out with this new DRM to go with ePub for the nook. If B&N had not come out with the nook, this would not be an issue.

Let's say you bought a digital camera which takes AA batteries and then a few years later Energizer makes Lithium AA (or Rayovac makes rechargeable alkalines, or whatever) batteries and you find out they don't work in your camera. I don't see how Energizer is at fault.

If my camera only took alkaline batteries and Energizer came out with lithium batteries, I would just by alkialine batteries and not have an issue with Energizer as the packaging would be labeled lithium. B&N does not properly label their ePub as to what DRM is used. So yes, people will end up buying when they should not. Not because they are stupid, but because B&N is being deceptive by not properly describing their product.

B&N sells you a digital product and provides you with a variety of ways to avail of it: for free on Windows/Mac/iPhone or on the paid specialty device. On the front page of the e-book section (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/ebooks/index.asp) there's a box on the right which lists your options. You choose to ignore this and complain that it's not readable on the device which core software hasn't been updated for years.

Yes, B&N says what the ePubs are are viewable with. But do you honestly expect them to say it's compatible with my 505 if it was? Sony does not tell you that the ePub they sell is compatible with the nook (we know it is). B&N wants to sell you a nook and Sony wants to sell you a Reader.

I don't see how anything is implied. Since when the "ebook" implies it can be read on any freaking device? On the first ebook page I've looked at (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/I-A...4538&inframe=y), immediately below "Available for download" it again lists your options and there's a link for additional details.

Unless you know about this new DRM, then it is implied that the ePub will work with any ADE authorized software/device. No other eBook format has multiple DRM schemes. B&N is not telling it's customers what is what.

You believe that they *must* put a warning that the content might not be readable on other devices and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Still, nook has better support for epub, thus nook is good for ebooks. Hence, the topic is a lie.

Yes, I do believe that B&N must give notice to the DRM they are using on the ePub they sell. It's deceptive not to tell you. If I sold you a computer program that said it was Windows compatible but it did not work on your computer because you did not have the ABC version of Windows because that's only available on an ABC computer, you'd not be happy if I didn't tell you about the ABC issue up front. Then if you want your money back because the software won't work, I won't give it back. Now do you think that would be fair to you?

The fact that B&N does not issue refunds for people who paid for content with the assumption they'd be able to read it with outdated software is shameful, but it doesn't make the topic any less lie.

The software people are using is not outdated. Even Adobe doesn't have the SDK for this new DRM. Get over it. B&N is wrong. B&N is deceptive. B&N is bad for eBooks. And the nook is bad for eBooks because without the nook, this issue would be a non-issue.

[netseeker]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The software people are using is not outdated.

Even beside the support of the new DRM the ePub renderer on our PRS-505 devices is outdated. I know this and you know this too. No other manufacturer uses such an old version of the mobile reader sdk. Sony had/has just no interest to update it to a more current version of the mobile reader sdk.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

And the nook is bad for eBooks because without the nook, this issue would be a non-issue.

Adobe has decided to create the new DRM, not B&N. B&N is just the first who uses it. Afaik their software for PC/Mac/iPhone supports the new DRM too. With or without the nook the new DRM would be an issue (or would at least become an issue in the near future)...

Btw. without ePub, Adobe, IDPF, [insert whatever you like] the issue would be a non-issue too...

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by netseeker

Even beside the support of the new DRM the ePub renderer on our PRS-505 devices is outdated. I know this and you know this too. No other manufacturer uses such an old version of the mobile reader sdk. Sony had/has just no interest to update it to a more current version of the mobile reader sdk.

Maybe true but it has no bearing on the DRM change which is what is being discussed here. The Adobe Adept DRM is the same on all epub implementations that use it with the current exception of B&N (including the nook).

Originally Posted by netseeker

Adobe has decided to create the new DRM, not B&N. B&N is just the first who uses it. Afaik their software for PC/Mac/iPhone supports the new DRM too. With or without the nook the new DRM would be an issue (or would at least become an issue in the near future)...

Btw. without ePub, Adobe, IDPF, [insert whatever you like] the issue would be a non-issue too...

I don't know that that's a fact either. Did adobe decide to do this is such a way that it just happened miraculously to use the B&N eReader type encryption key? I doubt it. I would put money on B&N working directly with Adobe to bring out this new version -- perhaps even exclusively for some amount of time.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I would like everyone reading this thread to goto B&N's website (using the link below) and find where in the listing does it mention that the eBook is in ePub and then find where it mentions what DRM is used. The book is [i]The help/i] by Kathryn Stockett.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The...2069&inframe=y

It doesn't say anything about filetypes or DRM. But it *does* say, in the "learn more" link next to the ebook note,

Barnes & Noble eBooks can be read on the iPhone/iTouch, Blackberry, or PC and Mac computers. Please check back for an expanded list of other supported devices.

To read eBooks on your device, you'll need the free Barnes & Noble eReader, the leading eBook formatting application.

And under the product info, it says:
* Format: eBook, 464pp
* File Size: 502 KB

It doesn't promise you can read it on a Sony ebook reader. I do find it odd that it's got a page count, 'cos ereader format doesn't mesh well with "pages." I wonder what size screen & font they got that number from?

Anyway. B&N is not committing any fraud... just poor business practice & treating their customers like idiots.

It does have a tag that says "works with the eReader you already own"--but has a "learn more" button that indicates what they mean by that. (I suppose they might be able to argue they mean "works with the eReader program you already own.")

[netseeker]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Maybe true but it has no bearing on the DRM change which is what is being discussed here.

I've just answered to JSWolfs post and he is the OP in this thread.

Originally Posted by kennyc

The Adobe Adept DRM is the same on all epub implementations that use it with the current exception of B&N (including the nook).

That's a half-truth. Afaik the nook does support both Adept DRM schemes. The support of the new DRM is just like an additional feature on the nook. (even if i hate to say it this way)

Originally Posted by kennyc

Did adobe decide to do this is such a way that it just happened miraculously to use the B&N eReader type encryption key? I doubt it. I would put money on B&N working directly with Adobe to bring out this new version -- perhaps even exclusively for some amount of time.

Interesting guess and it seems as if you're right: http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/2009/10/index.html

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stangri

I fail to see the point of the topic (nook is bad for ebooks). I see that the nook is great for eBooks -- it reads pretty much everything bought elsewhere and uses modern software. The other e-ink devices are clearly inferior to nook and by being outdated they are bad for ebooks.

I thought the Nook read eReader PDB, ePub, and PDF. And that's all.

Not even text files. Not mobi/prc, not other PDB formats (although it may read basic palmDOC format), not LIT, not RB/IMP, not FB2. Not CBR/CBZ. Not .doc, not .html.

The Nook seems like one of the more limited filetype devices.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by netseeker

I've just answered to JSWolfs post and he is the OP in this thread.


...

Their is an entire open discussion going on here. Not a private conversation.

The nook can be registered with Adobe DE and load DRM epubs in that manner as well, so yes it too supports the DRM version that all the other DRM-EPUB readers support. I'm not sure what your point is though. If you are trying to say there are other DRM-EPUB readers other than B&N DRM-EPUB readers then please supply a list of them as well as any DRM-EPUB readers that do not use Adobe Adept DRM which was my point.

[netseeker]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Their is an entire open discussion going on here. Not a private conversation.

Yes and what's your point? Do you think i'm not allowed to answer to JSWolf because this isn't a private conversation?

Originally Posted by kennyc

The nook can be registered with Adobe DE and load DRM epubs in that manner as well, so yes it too supports the DRM version that all the other DRM-EPUB readers support.

Exactly that was my point.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by netseeker

.

Exactly that was my point.

So there was nothing you disagreed with in what I said:

Maybe true but it has no bearing on the DRM change which is what is being discussed here. The Adobe Adept DRM is the same on all epub implementations that use it with the current exception of B&N (including the nook).

The nook still uses a DIFFERENT drm than any of the others and that is not clearly delineated and the fact that the nook will load the older version of DRM Epub makes it all the more confusing, particularly for newbies to this wild west of ebook readers.

That plus the fact that the samples from B&N can be read on an Sony or any other epub reader confuses the matter even moreso.

Bottom line is the implementation of the nook and bring it to market by B&N in the current form (i.e. implementing an new version of Adobe DRM) has caused confusion (due mostly to lack of clear information from B&N) and is overall "bad" for the epub market.

Hopefully it will all get sorted out in the coming year and perhaps all the Adobe DRM implementations will get in sync, but for the moment it is very confusing and the confusion is not being addressed well by the perpetrator.

[K-Thom]

Originally Posted by GJN

I guess that not all ePubs are equal and the nook isn't quite as open as advertised. Oh well, someday we'll get a standard format that will fit all readers and make us, the authors, and the publishers all happy. I just hope I live that long.

They already have - it's called txt. Also works fine with covers in ASCII.

[AprilHare]

Originally Posted by stangri

Well, the point is, nook has better support for epub, thus nook is good for ebooks. Hence, the topic is a lie.

Let's say you bought a digital camera which takes AA batteries and then a few years later Energizer makes Lithium AA (or Rayovac makes rechargeable alkalines, or whatever) batteries and you find out they don't work in your camera. I don't see how Energizer is at fault.

1) The word lie implies lack of truth when it is clearly opinion and therefore debatable and not true/false;
2) Actually yes Energizer would be at fault for providing a 'compatible' product which is actually not compatible. Not legally - morally.
This example is actually true of AA NiMH batteries in particular; the slightly lower voltage of such batteries prevents some older products from using such batteries. Example: older Gameboys do not work with AA NiMH batteries.

[AprilHare]

Originally Posted by K-Thom

They already have - it's called txt. Also works fine with covers in ASCII.

ASCII is all well and good - but what about Unicode?..