Where do I put the font EULA?

[Psymon]

Well, I'll be damned. I forget which font I'd used in those previous screenshots, but in re-doing this I did so with that "English" font (which not only is the one that I think suits my text the best, but also has some nicer ligs/alts).

And, lo and behold, not only do all the various characters come out just fine in iBooks, but in ADE, too! Check out the screenshots here -- awesome! ))

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by Jellby

That's what the font is supposed to do. If you look at my example, it has long-s in the middle of words and normal s at the end... yet the HTML has only "s", no long-s anywhere.

How on earth does it do that, like, how does a font "know" if the character is at the beginning, middle or end of the word? Is that what that "hist=1, liga=1, dlig=1" stuff you mentioned earlier does (somehow)?

I'm utterly clueless how that works!

Those shown in ADE are the ones defined by Unicode. If you could get the OpenType features to work in iBooks, I guess in ADE you'd see the same ligatures you see now, but not the other additional ones, and by not seeing I mean you'd see "ct" instead of the ct ligature, but not "Ã" or whatever. Surely that would be a more acceptable downgrade.

Well, you have me thinking/wondering... in those screenshots that I just loaded up, for each line I said what the ligature was supposed to represent, followed by the roman/italic versions of the actual ligature.

However, if I put in "ct" (as two letters, not a lig), then if what you say was actually working, shouldn't all those double-character combos (in the first "column") have been automatically changed to the ligature??? They don't, though, they stay as the two characters.

What I expect you can get is a single version, that works as you want in iBooks (and maybe others), and just okay in ADE.

Well, it would appear that I can do both, if I use that "English" font! I'm stunned -- and pleasantly, elatedly so -- that it apparently works just fine in ADE, including all the ligs!

[Psymon]

By the way, Jellby, I know I already said "thank you", but I really and truly just can't begin to thank you enough for discovering that Fell set of fonts -- really, this changes everything! I'd resigned myself to only being able to publish my book as I'd really like it to be on iBooks and nowhere else, but from the looks of it, I'll now be able to do so no problem on other platforms, too.

Seriously... THANK YOU!!!

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Psymon

[...] really, this changes everything! I'd resigned myself to only being able to publish my book as I'd really like it to be on iBooks and nowhere else, but from the looks of it, I'll now be able to do so no problem on other platforms, too.

Seriously... THANK YOU!!!

Welcome to the "dark side".

See what following standards gets you?

Also, it is usually bad forum etiquette to post so many posts in a row. Best bet is to just Edit the previous post (if there is only a few minutes between posts).

Originally Posted by Psymon

How on earth does it do that, like, how does a font "know" if the character is at the beginning, middle or end of the word?

I don't know the specifics, but I believe fonts have huge tables (think multiplication tables) explaining exactly what the character will do when combined with any other characters in the font. So the font defines things like slightly different spacing if an 'f' is next to an 'f', or a 'f' next to a 't'.

You can easily tell if it is in the beginning of a word if it has a space (or "word boundary") to the left of the character, or in the middle of a word if there is a letter to the left/right, and the end of a word if it has a space (or "word boundary") to the right.

Side Note: I am not too sure on the specific font terminology, but word boundary is a term used in Regex: http://www.regular-expressions.info/wordboundaries.html

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Welcome to the "dark side".

Actually, I think I'm now moving from the dark side to the light side!

See what following standards gets you?

Well, it wasn't so much out of choice before -- at least, not at the sacrifice of what I wanted to do, and how I wanted things to look. But that was before, of course! Your discovery of these Fell fonts really and truly has changed everything!

Also, it is usually bad forum etiquette to post so many posts in a row. Best bet is to just Edit the previous post (if there is only a few minutes between posts).

Oops! My apologies -- I'm new around here (relatively). I'll keep that in mind in the future, for sure.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Psymon

How on earth does it do that, like, how does a font "know" if the character is at the beginning, middle or end of the word? Is that what that "hist=1, liga=1, dlig=1" stuff you mentioned earlier does (somehow)?

Well, it's actually not the font, but the renderer who follows the font's instructions. Basically, the font says:

If you want an "s", draw this vector image (this is the "s" glyph)
...but if the "s" is followed by any of these characters (a list of all lowercase letters follows), you should draw this other vector image instead (this is the "long-s" glyph)

The renderer reads the input text, reads the font, and choses the glyphs accordingly. The replacement of "s" with "long-s" is optional, and that is what we need to enable, otherwise the renderer will only interpret the first rule (draw an "s"). In OpenType, there is a set of standard names for this kind of features like you may want to enable or disable (ligatures, swash forms, smallcaps...), and this particular one is "hist".

I'm utterly clueless how that works!

Now what we need is to find out how to tell each reader that we want the long-s (with the "hist" feature) and the discretionary ligatures for ct, is, etc. (the "dlig" feature). The other ligatures (ff, fl... and even long-s t or long-s h) should be turned on by default.

This is usually done with CSS, but since it's a rather new part, it's not yet fully standardized, and every rendering engine uses a slightly different syntax. That's what the code I posted was suppose to do: use the appropriate syntax for every known engine.

Now, if you don't know what is CSS, how it works or how to write/modify, you should really have a look at some tutorials. It's pretty simple, don't be afraid.

However, if I put in "ct" (as two letters, not a lig), then if what you say was actually working, shouldn't all those double-character combos (in the first "column") have been automatically changed to the ligature??? They don't, though, they stay as the two characters.

"ct" would not work out of the box, as it is a discretionary ligature. Try "ff" or "fi", those should work in ADE (at least in the newest version) without any special action on your part (just using an embedded font). And the same goes for kerning, by the way, it should be active by default.

[EDIT: actually, you can see in the screenshot that the first two columns for "ff", "fi", etc. are identical, this means the ligature is being used when you write the two separate characters!]

I'm stunned -- and pleasantly, elatedly so -- that it apparently works just fine in ADE, including all the ligs!

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if enabling the non-default OpenType features didn't work in ADE. In that case, I would not recommend hard-coding the ligatures, even if you can do that

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Well, it's actually not the font, but the renderer who follows the font's instructions. Basically, the font says:

If you want an "s", draw this vector image (this is the "s" glyph)
...but if the "s" is followed by any of these characters (a list of all lowercase letters follows), you should draw this other vector image instead (this is the "long-s" glyph)

If I understand from what you're saying here that the if I include all that "hist", "liga", "dlig" stuff in my CSS code, then when I write my "olde" text using just a regular "s", then it should change that to a long-ess in the appropriate spots automatically?

If that's what you meant, then it doesn't seem to be working -- not only is the long-ess not showing up, but none of the other ligs like "ct", "st", etc. are either. I just threw together these fonts, CSS and stuff into my ebook to begin the process of converting it all, and I suppose the next step would be to "normalize" all my text, i.e. get rid of all those odd characters and ligatures I had because of that JSL font, and instead just let the device render the ligs/alts automatically, but I'm a little hesitant to go ahead and do that if I can't get it to work right first.

I guess I'm not sure what to do now -- or perhaps I'm asking, I suppose, if you have any suggestions on what to do? All that I can think of is to just go ahead and manually put in the long-ess and all those various ligs everywhere, but in that regard you also said this...

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if enabling the non-default OpenType features didn't work in ADE. In that case, I would not recommend hard-coding the ligatures, even if you can do that

Well, it certainly seemed to work okay, by putting those ligs, etc. in myself (as you could see in those screenshots I took). And why not just put those ligs in manually here, there and everywhere, if they seem to be working just fine? If it's because of that searching issue, well, like I said there's still the "modern" version of my text, and even without ligs, etc. that "olde" version is almost unintelligible, let alone unspellable, anyway (to the average reader).

I think maybe I might not be quite grasping what you're saying/suggesting?

I'm tired -- I should go to bed. Maybe a good night's sleep will get it to all make sense to me somehow.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Psymon

If I understand from what you're saying here that the if I include all that "hist", "liga", "dlig" stuff in my CSS code, then when I write my "olde" text using just a regular "s", then it should change that to a long-ess in the appropriate spots automatically?

Yes, that is.

If that's what you meant, then it doesn't seem to be working -- not only is the long-ess not showing up, but none of the other ligs like "ct", "st", etc. are either.

Then, either the reader the reader does not support enabling the OpenType features, or there is some mistake in the CSS code, or there is a different syntax that will work.

Well, it certainly seemed to work okay, by putting those ligs, etc. in myself (as you could see in those screenshots I took). And why not just put those ligs in manually here, there and everywhere, if they seem to be working just fine? If it's because of that searching issue, well, like I said there's still the "modern" version of my text, and even without ligs, etc. that "olde" version is almost unintelligible, let alone unspellable, anyway (to the average reader).

Searching, maintainability and general "cleanliness" of code

There's another option that doesn't rely on advanced OpenType features, just on standard ligatures (which are working in iBooks and ADE). Just modify the fonts adding the discretionary ligatures ("ct", "is"...) to the standard ligatures table ("liga"). Then, in your HTML text, use the long-s, but do not write the ligatures by hand, let the font use them. I'm pretty sure that will work.

To add these extra ligatures to the font in FontForge: Go to Element->Font Info, choose Lookups, and in the GSUB tab you have different tables. We want to modify the "liga" one(s). Click on the + sign of the "liga" entry (either of them if there are several), then select the subtable and click the "Edit Data" button. You'll see a table with the ligature name in the left column and the constituent glyphs in the right column, and you'll see it already includes some long-s ligatures.

Do the same with the "dlig" entry, and you'll see the list of discretionary ligatures that we want to add to the standard ones. Back to the "liga" table, click on the "<New>" entry and write what you saw in "dlig". When you are finished, export your font as OTF.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Then, either the reader the reader does not support enabling the OpenType features, or there is some mistake in the CSS code, or there is a different syntax that will work.

Interesting... I was on the verge of throwing my hands up in the air and sending off a test epub for you to look at, to see if you could possibly find any errors in my code, but then thought I'd just try substituting the long-ess in my text wherever it was supposed to be -- and lo and behold, that seemed to do the trick! All the ligs seem to now come out just fine. It's just the long-ess that I guess doesn't "know" it needs to go where it belongs, that's all.

And thank you so much for the perfect instructions on how to change the dlig entries to liga ones instead! I had no problems with that at all, until I got to the very end...

When you are finished, export your font as OTF.

Um, where/how do I export as OTF in Font Forge? I couldn't seem to find that anywhere -- and then I thought maybe it would ask me to do that if/when I went to close the program, but all it did was crash on me (and no doubt not save any of the changes I'd made).

Thanks so much -- this is awesome! And actually a little fun, too!

PS. Oh, another question re editing the font in Font Forge... in that "English" font, for the italic, there's rather a nice "k" character (with a bit of a swashy descender) that would be great to use whenever it's followed by a space. How would I create a "k+space" kinda thing in there, so that it substitutes that character (and keep the space) whenever it encounters that? Or is that something where I should just add/change that on my own, right in my code?

On a related note, I don't know if you noticed, but there's also an intriguing k+comma lig (with the comma underneath the k) in the italic versions of those Fell fonts -- I don't think I've ever seen that before, in any of the countless old books I've ever looked at! Any idea what that character (or ligature) is all about? Is it, indeed, something to be used when the letter "k" is followed by a comma? Very strange -- I really don't recall ever seeing that before.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Psymon

Um, where/how do I export as OTF in Font Forge? I couldn't seem to find that anywhere -- and then I thought maybe it would ask me to do that if/when I went to close the program, but all it did was crash on me (and no doubt not save any of the changes I'd made).

File -> Generate Fonts. Select "OpenType (CFF)" and either uncheck the "Validate Before Saving" box or ignore any warning that appears (or fix those if you are feeling brave).

PS. Oh, another question re editing the font in Font Forge... in that "English" font, for the italic, there's rather a nice "k" character (with a bit of a swashy descender) that would be great to use whenever it's followed by a space. How would I create a "k+space" kinda thing in there, so that it substitutes that character (and keep the space) whenever it encounters that? Or is that something where I should just add/change that on my own, right in my code?

I guess you could have the k replaced with k.swash whenever it's followed by space (in a similar way how the s is replaced with long-s), but you'd still have to activate the corresponding OpenType feature, which it seems you still haven't been able to. Contrary to the long-s, that k.swash glyph has no standard Unicode slot, so I can't recommend using that in the input text.

On a related note, I don't know if you noticed, but there's also an intriguing k+comma lig (with the comma underneath the k) in the italic versions of those Fell fonts -- I don't think I've ever seen that before, in any of the countless old books I've ever looked at! Any idea what that character (or ligature) is all about? Is it, indeed, something to be used when the letter "k" is followed by a comma? Very strange -- I really don't recall ever seeing that before.

It's not a ligature, it's probably a k with cedilla. I guess you only noticed because you saw the corresponding swash glyph, but there's also l, m, n, r...

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by Jellby

File -> Generate Fonts. Select "OpenType (CFF)" and either uncheck the "Validate Before Saving" box or ignore any warning that appears (or fix those if you are feeling brave).

Oh, I'm such a dummy. I was still in the "font info" window and that's why I couldn't find "File"! D'oh.

You'll be happy to know that I've got EVERYTHING working PERFECTLY now, both in iBooks and ADE -- all the ligatures come out exactly as they're supposed to (including those that I switched over from dlig to liga). I really am so utterly thrilled and elated about this -- and you're a saint, Jellby, for all your help with this, you truly are!

Just a couple more comments on the other stuff you wrote...

I guess you could have the k replaced with k.swash whenever it's followed by space (in a similar way how the s is replaced with long-s), but you'd still have to activate the corresponding OpenType feature, which it seems you still haven't been able to. Contrary to the long-s, that k.swash glyph has no standard Unicode slot, so I can't recommend using that in the input text.

So basically I should probably just forget about that swashy "k"? It'd be nice to toss it in here and there, but it's not like I'm losing out on a whole bunch of swashy characters -- it's only the "k".

It's not a ligature, it's probably a k with cedilla. I guess you only noticed because you saw the corresponding swash glyph, but there's also l, m, n, r...

Ah, okay -- funny, being from Canada I'm used to seeing French text and the c+cedilla, but that's the only context that I'm used to seeing it in so it never occurred to me that it was a k+cedilla. I guess I should get out more.

Well, this has truly been quite a journey! Again, I just don't know how to thank you! I wouldn't be surprised if I end up with some other questions, but I think for now I might have a little bit of fun fancying up my text a little bit with those two "flowers" (ornaments) fonts that were included in that Fell font set.

It's been a slice, Jellby! (again!)

[Psymon]

Okay, here's an interesting conundrum that I've run into, re hyphenation...

My book, as I've described it here before, is in two parts: the first half is in regular, modern English, and the second half is the exact same text but transliterated into late-Middle English (and typeset in these "olde" fonts, as we've been discussing, of course).

Now, I can't stand the auto-hyphenation "feature" because it adds far, far too many broken words at the ends of lines, and so what I did for my modern text is to have it turned off in my CSS throughout the entire text (that modern part) and then I selectively chose words for which I would allow it (and I did this by viewing the text at various font sizes in order to see where the issues would be, and then chose words accordingly).

[Note: as I'm writing this, I realized that ADE seems to ignore this, and allows hyphenation anyway, despite my saying not to in my CSS -- but it does work just fine in iBooks, at least.]

I wish I could do the exact same thing with my "olde" text, but it doesn't seem that I can! The problem, I can only assume, is that none of the longer, "problematic" words simply aren't in the built-in English dictionary (for example, "diſſapoyntmends", etc.), and the software just has no idea where/how to break the words -- and so it doesn't.

One alternative that I did try -- instead of allowing hyphenation on certain words -- is to use the ­ method, but that doesn't seem to work either (neither in iBooks nor ADE), it's just simply ignored.

Anyone have another solution, for either selectively allowing hyphenation on certain words, or else to insert something similar to ­ within the words?

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Psymon

Anyone have another solution, for either selectively allowing hyphenation on certain words, or else to insert something similar to * within the words?

There is a unicode character called a "soft hyphen". Just imagine it as telling the rendering software that this is where an "optional hyphen" can go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_hyphen

You can stick it in your EPUB using the HTML named entity (remove the space between "& s"):

& shy;

But this has a few disadvantages:

• Breaks searching in many readers
• If the user's font does not include the "soft hyphen" character, it will turn into a "missing character" glyph.
• I personally think it makes very ugly and harder to maintain code.

Best bet is to just leave hyphenation up to the limitations of the reading program/dictionary. This is again one of those where you weigh the pros/cons of maintainability. You build a compliant EPUB, and you hope they update/make better hyphenation in readers in the future.

[Toxaris]

You could use & shy; but that will not work on older readers (you will see probably questionmarks). Then again, there is no hyphenation on those older devices anyway.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

There is a unicode character called a "soft hyphen". Just imagine it as telling the rendering software that this is where an "optional hyphen" can go.

Oh, but like I said in my question, I tried that and it didn't seem to work at all!

I have a feeling I might be stuck with this problem, and without a solution for it. Bummer!

PS. Oh, ha ha, I see now why you guys both gave me the answer that I'd already tried. In my original question, I'd said "One alternative that I did try -- instead of allowing hyphenation on certain words -- is to use the method...", but what I really said there was "...is to use the [ampersand+shy] method...", but I guess when I posted that the character entity didn't show up! It was shy.