With this attitude, is it any wonder new authors don't trust the system?

[Redfox]

What Neil said. I already covered this in post #54 of this thread, but here's the breakdown:

1. Approx 90% (many say more) of the slush pile is either barely literate, or just plain wrong for that agent (e.g. romance novels sent to a TV script agent or vice versa).

2. Of the remaining 10%, 9 in 10 are competently written but just don't float that particular agent's boat - the writing doesn't suck, but it doesn't sing either. Maybe the writer has promise, but they need to work harder on their craft - and most agents don't have the time or interest.

So no, it's not a lottery by any means. Agents don't pick manuscripts out of the slushpile at random like lottery balls, they select on quality of writing and commercial promise plus subjective criteria (personal taste). Write to a publishable standard, and sooner or later you're likely to find an agent who loves your work (unless it's very weird!!).

Previous success in other markets counts for very little. Short stories maybe, self-publishing, not so much. Many many first novels are picked up by agents and editors from writers who have never sold a story in their lives. Novels and short stories are very different beasts, and an agent seriously isn't going to ignore a good submission package just because you have no track record.

Telling yourself you have no chance because it's a lottery is a self-fulfilling prophecy and frankly defeatist. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen

[Steven Lake]

MTM, Alan Turing was a bloody genius. His incredible mental skills improved his chances of cracking the code in the same way that buying more tickets would improve your chances of winning the lottery. And it's also the same thing when trying to get picked up by a big house. The greater your skill, the more you improve your chances that your submission won't be tossed in the recycle bin after a mere glance.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by M T McGuire

This may be true but then... Alan Turing's chances of breaking the enigma code were fifteen million, million to one... and he succeeded...

Did he actually break the Enigma code? I know he worked on it, but not sure he broke it.
I thought the biggest breakthrough with the naval enigma code was when a code book was captured from a stricken German sub.

[neilmarr]

You sum up beautifully, Redfox. And, I believe, accurately.

It's not so much a lottery as poker. You learn by your mistakes (not by immediately stacking your cards or playing rashly in desperation and/or frustration), you quietly develop, you weigh up the playing field according to reaction, you learn to play the hand that's dealt as effectively as you can -- some have artful skill, others practice and training, others work by the gut, others, we must all admit, have luck the luck of the Irish.

I strongly believe that perseverance is king with a willingness to learn from rejection ... and you don't attempt to play poker at a bridge club.

Some think that self-publishing is a different game and maybe the easier option, and the attraction of independence mustn't be underestimated. But it ain't so very different. The same principles apply as you try to gain the attention of readers. And that's sometimes an even tougher job than gaining that of an agent of publisher.

Many thanks for your astute insights, follks. I've learned a lot in this thread. Best wishes. Neil

[NickSpalding]

And your opinions as an editor and publisher are much appreciated too, Mr Marr

We could do with an agent contributing to this conversation as well ... get all sides!

[NickSpalding]

Well it's all swings and roundabouts, isn't it?

Max (the fella from the original post) tells me that another major London agency has asked to read the rest of his book ...

[M T McGuire]

I hear you all, but I still think there is luck involved, the kind of luck I simply don't have. I want to tell a story, I want to tell it well and for people to like it - and for the first time in 20 years of trying to do that I know I've cracked it with this one. Fashion and time are also against me, the bubble for fantasy must be about to burst, I'd rather do the same amount of marketing a publishing house would expect me to do for more of the profits...

I'm going viral and I'll take it from there.

Cheers

MTM

Oh yeh and PS, I'm rubbish at poker
Oh and PPS, they did get a code book but I'm not sure it was the full monty was it? My knowledge is sketchy but I thought they broke the code and the captured stuff just cut the decoding times by giving them the settings... could be talking bollocks though... I usually do ;-)

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by M T McGuire

I hear you all, but I still think there is luck involved, the kind of luck I simply don't have. I want to tell a story, I want to tell it well and for people to like it - and for the first time in 20 years of trying to do that I know I've cracked it with this one. Fashion and time are also against me, the bubble for fantasy must be about to burst, I'd rather do the same amount of marketing a publishing house would expect me to do for more of the profits...

I'm going viral and I'll take it from there.

Cheers

MTM

Oh yeh and PS, I'm rubbish at poker
Oh and PPS, they did get a code book but I'm not sure it was the full monty was it? My knowledge is sketchy but I thought they broke the code and the captured stuff just cut the decoding times by giving them the settings... could be talking bollocks though... I usually do ;-)

I do believe there is luck involved. The luck to buy the right industry fathead a drink at the bar (I haven't met one who isn't a lush or a drug addict or who hasn't got the sexual sophistication of a goat). The luck of being related to another fathead at the publishing company. The luck to already be a bankable celebrity who will be given a literary contract no questions asked by another fathead who smells money. Merit has f**k all to do with the modern publishing industry, anybody who tells you that is either lying, deluded or trying to sell you something.

The industry (laughable as that identifier may be) is a special collection of special people who just happen to be located in London, New York and Paris. It's a club, a rich and powerful elite that you have to pass a initiation to be accepted into. No paddling or the toasting of crumpets upon ones arse, but it boils down to the same thing. You're going to have to bend over and take one for the team, old boy, if you want to be in the club. And then you'll get your special secret decoder ring, your own key to the bathroom, and some vaseline for the chafing.

Or you know, the author can start to redress the inequity in the system. He or she may realise that - HOLY F**K MONKEYS! I'M THE TALENT HERE. THEY'RE THE ONES WHO NEED ME!

*Brought to you by someone who has his popcorn ready for when the whole mess collapses in on itself.*

[crich70]

I wouldn't lose heart Nick. I remember reading about how a new author (some yrs back before I was born) tried some 27 publishers for his 1st book before being accepted. The name of the book and author? To think That I saw It on Mulberry Street by Dr. Seuss. Each book or story will find it's own home in time. I also understand that before he made his 1st sale Stephen King had racked up quite a collection of rejections. There isn't a published author anywhere who hasn't been rejected I don't think.

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

Posted this over at Kindle Boards, thought you guys might have an opinion too:

Last night I had a curry with a few people, one of whom is a fellow author (and annoyingly one more talented than me, probably). We got to talking about what he was writing currently and he told me he'd just started sending his freshest manuscript out to agents.

One particular agent on their website made the claim that they were reading new author's work, and encouraged authors to send them their samples and synopsis - by email. My mate did this, as his book was the type of thing they agency was looking for.

He also made sure his email had a read receipt attached...

Two weeks later he got a read receipt at 15.00 hours precisely.

...He got a rejection email from the agency at 15.02 hours.

So they hadn't even bothered looking at his submission, despite claiming to be happy to read them.

He did point out that it looked like the submission had only been looked at by an assistant...and not an actual agent, which sounds about right.

Sigh.

It's this kind of attitude (completely unsurprising, but sad nonetheless) that really puts anyone off bothering to submit their work.