Another grossly overpriced ebook.

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

I don't think I did. You made a flat-out statement and then went on about not seeing how that was going to change despite etc etc.

No. I made a tentative statement with a qualification. You inaccurately represented that and I asked for fairness when quoting me.

You defend your inaccurate quote and that is perfectly fine as that is your prerogative and my plea for a more full treatment of what I said is completely at your mercy. I am glad that I provided a more full quote while highlighting your version of my statement though, just so people can follow the real argument. So, I am satisfied overall.

Now, we have been through this, I understand where you stand on this even though I do not think your treatment of my contribution was fair despite your dismissal of my complaint directed at your quoting habit.

No more need be said. It is obvious where we sit.

[jbcohen]

Iwouldl ike to take a moment in the disucssion of ebooks as a service to note the definitions of the words that are being used. Goods are a group of merchndise that are sold according to Miriam and Webster (m-w.com). There is no mention that the items sold needs to be a of a phiscal nature what so ever thus in my opinion software and/or an ebook can be goods. And a service is defined as work that is rendered to a customer, thus I do not belive that either ebooks and/or software qualify.

Thus it is my contention that as a part of goods that may be sold on a market they are subject to the same rights and restrictions as the dead wood books would be. I am not a lawyer and have no knowledge of the legal issues but it would be my contention that ebooks since they are part of goods they may be resold at any time. If I buy a license for say a Dale Brown book, which I have done, I may chose to sell that license at a future time.

[Redcard]

First sale doctrine does not extend to digitally protected media. That's one of the hallmarks of the DMCA.

[screwballl]

The act of selling ebooks is a service, the books themselves whether it is a paper or digital version is a good.

Any digital good that is not locked with DRM DOES fall within First Sale doctrine. There was a lawsuit from 2007-08 about CDs (which is also digital media on a physical medium) being sold second hand and the company UMG did not like it.

Example lawsuit:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...tional-cds.ars

So it doesn't matter if it is a physical book, ebook or Kindle with books on it, the law states we can legally sell the digital goods as we please provided it does not have DRM from the source we purchased it from.

[OtterBooks]

Why ever not?

Because when you email something you aren't transporting anything of yours, you're manufacturing and distributing. What's produced at the other end is not what you purchased; it's a copy. If you destroy your copy, then all you did was destroy your copy. Now, ethically you may have satisfied the spirit of copyright, but I think making a copy then destroying the original out of a sense of honor is an unrealistic scenario.

As you stated, the legalities could be different in your area, regarding software.

That is a very narrow view that heavily favors publishers' rights.

The process of file download and utilization isn't really my "view." It's what actually occurs. If you think the reality of that process favors publisher's rights, then maybe that's something you should consider, but it wasn't my intent. I realize we can debate the service vs. goods thing to eternity, so I'll agree to disagree.

but yes, less valuable (and less expensive to produce) than a physical book. Consequently I am not prepared to pay the same price for it.

And you don't have to. Not even if you want to read the book. It's an additional product they offer for use with your luxury electronic entertainment device. You're trying to assign value as if it were a commodity, and it is not (I don't think books themselves are a luxury, though, and I like your avatar ). Its price deprives nobody of anything, which makes the notion of some disadvantaged demographic resorting to desperate means to acquire it rather bizarre, especially considering the additional cost of hardware involved to obtain and use it.

Jasper Fforde's Lost in a Good Book can be purchased off the very same site that sells the $15 ebook, for $4 used (in paper form no less, which you find more valuable.). I bet it reads just fine. Those starving ereader owners can rejoice, and sell their electronics for bags of millet.

[OtterBooks]

The act of selling ebooks is a service, the books themselves whether it is a paper or digital version is a good.

You purchased the paper good; the digital good you manufactured on a medium you purchased elsewhere (or at least separately). The service provided you with the information required to do it, gave you limited rights regarding doing it again, and provides continued access to that service should you require it in the future.

When you buy an ebook you are not really buying a book. You're buying the means to make one, and the limited rights to do so. Don't like the terms? Don't agree with the value? Don't pay for it, or make one without paying for those rights by getting the information from someone who violates those terms (and possibly laws). Your call. I won't judge.

Any digital good that is not locked with DRM DOES fall within First Sale doctrine. There was a lawsuit from 2007-08 about CDs (which is also digital media on a physical medium) being sold second hand and the company UMG did not like it.

Physical medium created by the original manufacturer. Not a copy. The only way to get an ebook is to make your own copy (via the service which includes that limited right), and the only reasonable way to give it to someone else is to make another and distribute it.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by OtterBooks

Now, ethically you may have satisfied the spirit of copyright ...

Legally, too.

but I think making a copy then destroying the original out of a sense of honor is an unrealistic scenario.

That's still how it works, I am afraid, like it or not.

The process of file download and utilization isn't really my "view." It's what actually occurs.

Selling you a book can be considered a service, if you must, but it still results in the purchase of non-tangible goods.

[Angst]

Originally Posted by OtterBooks

Jasper Fforde's Lost in a Good Book can be purchased off the very same site that sells the $15 ebook, for $4 used (in paper form no less, which you find more valuable.). I bet it reads just fine. Those starving ereader owners can rejoice, and sell their electronics for bags of millet.

Or I can refuse to buy either the ebook or pbook version because I feel unfairly targeted by the publisher. Which I will do. But I still reserve the right to bitch and scream at the price gouging or ebook consumers by the publisher.

Now please excuse me while I chew my cud.

[Perryw]

Originally Posted by Angst

Lost in a Good Book, Jasper Fforde

Paperback (New): $10.20
ebook (Kindle): $14.99

A 50% markup just to read the ebook. As a matter of fact, for every book by Jasper Fforde carried by Amazon, the ebook price is higher than the paperback price. I'm getting really, really pissed off at the new agency rules.


edit:
Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse:
Thursday Next: First Among Sequels


Hardcover: $5.56
Paperback: $11.25
ebook: $12.99

This is just stupid pricing. The agency model doesn't have much to do with it.

[OtterBooks]

Legally, too.

If you're talking about software and that coincides with the laws in your area, ok. If you can email an ebook to someone and then delete your copy, and that also satisfies the law in your area, then ok too. I'm not familiar with that. If you can buy a paper book, run off your own copy on a printing press, then sell it and burn the original and it's all legal. Wonderful.

That's still how it works, I am afraid, like it or not.

Well I suppose I'm limited to the product discussed in this thread and the place from which I'm writing when I say no, it does not work that way, nor does it happen that way.

Selling you a book can be considered a service, if you must, but it still results in the purchase of non-tangible goods.

I think I see the problem, here, and the flaw in much of the criticism of ebook sales, and DRM:

There's no such thing as non-tangible goods.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by OtterBooks

There's no such thing as non-tangible goods.

Is that so? I'll be sure to let my professors in law school know. Until then, however, I'll abstain from any further discussion.

[OtterBooks]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Is that so? I'll be sure to let my professors in law school know. Until then, however, I'll abstain from any further discussion.

Please do. I am open to being re-enlightened on the matter, or rather, the nature of matter. Discussing how intellectual property falls into and where ebook purchases fit into the whole mess will risk my sanity. Hence, I concede on all points. All I wanna do is read some books.

[Daithi]

Originally Posted by Perryw

This is just stupid pricing. The agency model doesn't have much to do with it.

Actually it does. Under non-agency pricing the vendor (i.e. Amazon) was able to set the pricing and they generally set it at a discount of the lowest priced paper version of the book.

[Angst]

Originally Posted by Daithi

Under non-agency pricing the vendor (i.e. Amazon) was able to set the pricing and they generally set it at a discount of the lowest priced paper version of the book.

All retailers were much more sensitive to selling price of books, (not just ebooks), and were able to respond quickly to market conditions, in much the same way the agency five don't.

[silasgreenback]

The 40th Anniversary Edition of Dune for Kindle is outrageously priced and according to reviews, very badly formatted.

Dune at Kindle Store

Even the paperback is expensive at $11.56.

You can buy the paperback from the Borders website for $7.99 and I saw a hardcover version on sale at a B&M Waldenbooks for the same price.

I don't have to think long about which store would get the cash.

One thing I'd never heard of until coming here was buying 2nd hand and slicing the spines off to be scanned. Learning about that alone was worth registering.