Is piracy likely to harm ebook sales?

[queentess]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Final point about piracy actually benefiting authors? It is possible I guess, but I am far from convinced. I don't see how broad circulation among the never-pay-for-it crowd will ever benefit authors in sales and income.

That's because they're not the 'never-pay-for-it crowd' that insist they are If a friend loans me a cd (or in some other way recommends that I try a new artist/author), and I like what I hear/read, I will go purchase additional works by that artist/author. Word of mouth is a powerful thing, and pirated items can promote authors in the same way that word of mouth does. Try a sample, like it, go buy more.

[Tricorp]

There are so many posts on this thread that compare books to music, but I really don't think that is an apt comparison. They are different in every way and just because many people stole music, does not mean they will steal ebooks. I honestly believe that the vast majority of ebook users will never pirate a book and it really is not a problem.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by Tricorp

There are so many posts on this thread that compare books to music, but I really don't think that is an apt comparison. They are different in every way and just because many people stole music, does not mean they will steal ebooks. I honestly believe that the vast majority of ebook users will never pirate a book and it really is not a problem.

Who said anyone was stealing anything? If you're thinking of infringement well it's common enough if you think you can outright stop it I have a bridge to sell you.

[djgreedo]

Originally Posted by Tricorp

There are so many posts on this thread that compare books to music, but I really don't think that is an apt comparison. They are different in every way and just because many people stole music, does not mean they will steal ebooks. I honestly believe that the vast majority of ebook users will never pirate a book and it really is not a problem.

I agree with you to some extent. But the similarity is that of a product that used to be physical now being available digitally. Copying a digital product is effortless and free, and people will breach copyright to get free content for whatever reason justifies it to them.

The biggest problem publishers face is their own stupidity. They need to embrace their paying, honest customers and ignore the piracy. The pirates will always find an excuse to not pay, and nothing the publishers do will solve that fundamental side-effect of the digital age.

The publishers should put their effort into keeping their industry relevant in a time when they are not really necessary. Treat customers well. Make digital prices reasonable, remove DRM and geographic restrictions.

The problem is also on both sides. Publishers want to reap the benefits of digital distribution while keeping prices the same and pocketing extra profits. Consumers want dirt cheap prices for infinitely copyable digital media. There needs to be a sweet spot.

I recently got a Kindle, and I like the fact that many books are under $15 (Australian dollars that is). I think that's a nice price considering that most new paperbacks are around $20 - $35 in the shops. But the Kindle DRM prevents me from buying lots of books, and many books aren't available to me simply because of my geographic location.

Publishers are terrifed of the ( mostly imaginary) harm that new technology can do to their profits and oblivious to the benefits it can give to their business. There will be a changing of the guard soon, but in the meanwhile we have to deal with an industry that is resisting the inevitible move into the 21st century.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Tricorp

There are so many posts on this thread that compare books to music, but I really don't think that is an apt comparison. They are different in every way and just because many people stole music, does not mean they will steal ebooks. I honestly believe that the vast majority of ebook users will never pirate a book and it really is not a problem.

It may not be valid in respect to the amount of piracy, but it is valid in the way it is done and the reason for doing it.

[lene1949]

percentages of e-books pirated compared to music and vidoes pirated would be very small...

Music and videos are even poplular here in Australia, and have been for years, whereas e-books haven't made a dent...

I'm the only one I know, who's been reading e-books for 5-6 years...

One year ago, I went to Denmark, looked for e-book readers in the airports... There were none...

I would rather pay for an e-book than getting it from the darknet... It's much easier... While I can't buy a book (the Hard Copy I have already bought years ago - it's available as an e-book, but just not to people living outside USA/Ca), I can at least choose to get it for free...

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by Fat Abe

[...]

Wasn't this thread started by an evangelist? What would God think of piracy? Would his angels deny you entry into heaven, if you violated copyright law? Shall we ask the lord for an Eleventh commandment, say, in honor of Sonny Bono? Thou shalt not read a pirated book or watch a bootleg movie, for it is a far greater sin than adultery, false worship, or avarice. Amen.

Actually, the Catholic Tradition states that one of the sins that cry out to Heaven for vengeance is defrauding laborers of their wages.

To download copyrighted material is definitely to use someone's work without paying him/her.
So, there's no doubt about it.

For a Catholic illicit download should be a sin comparable to homicide and homosexuality.

For the record, no one of the catholic I know (most of them are downloaders) agrees about it.
I didn't research it deeply, but I'm pretty sure there is not an official position of the Pope on this subject.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by Format C:

For a Catholic illicit download should be a sin comparable to homicide and homosexuality.

woah.... How about a disclaimer that you don't hold those two as equivialnt

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Fat Abe

What would God think of piracy? Would his angels deny you entry into heaven, if you violated copyright law? Shall we ask the lord for an Eleventh commandment, say, in honor of Sonny Bono? Thou shalt not read a pirated book or watch a bootleg movie, for it is a far greater sin than adultery, false worship, or avarice. Amen.

Makes me wonder what the loaf and fish sellers thought of Jesus, and whether they lobbied their government for new laws to put an end to what he was doing. "Loaf and fish piracy is costing the economy billions of dollars a week, we should start nailing them to crosses so that they will go back to buying them again"

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Tricorp

There are so many posts on this thread that compare books to music, but I really don't think that is an apt comparison. They are different in every way and just because many people stole music, does not mean they will steal ebooks. I honestly believe that the vast majority of ebook users will never pirate a book and it really is not a problem.

The similarities are very striking. Both industries initially refused to supply customers with what they want, so individual enthusiasts stepped in to fill the gap, and everyone got used to getting their digital products for free. That free content created a demand for, and justified the purchase of, products for using that digital content away from the computer. Which brought the prices of the hardware down dramatically, and made them affordable to anyone.

Which is when the traditional publishers decided it was worth entering the market. Unfortuantely their first attempt at winning back the customers they had lost was to price the nonexistant virtual product at a higher price than the real physical product. That is the stage we are at now with ebooks.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Unfortuantely their first attempt at winning back the customers they had lost was to price the nonexistant virtual product at a higher price than the real physical product.

It's not just publishers who are asking more for ebooks than for physical books. Amazon ask for more from small publishers.

I sell my print books through Amazon, and the entire distribution chain takes just 20%. (PoD through Lightning Source/Ingram) Of course, I also need to pay for the print cost of each copy sold.

My ebooks are sold through the Amazon Kindle Store. Amazon takes 65% of the RRP of the ebook. For non-US customers, they also add on a $2 wireless download fee.

My latest book has an RRP of $12.99 paperback, $7.99 ebook.

From the paperback I get $12.99*0.8-$3.97 = $6.42
From the Kindle ebook I get $7.99*0.35 = $2.80.

To get as much from a Kindle eBook sale as from a paperback sale, I'd need to price the ebook at $18.34! Or alternatively, if I was willing to only make as much from the paper as from the ebook, I should set the paper price at $8.49, just $0.50 more than the ebook RRP. Clearly Amazon are charging far too much to small publisher for being in the Kindle store.

Amazon are adding another option to the Kindle store soon. A 70% rate (less delivery costs) that will net me $5.56 per ebook sold. But it doesn't arrive until June, and then only for US sales.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

My latest book has an RRP of $12.99 paperback, $7.99 ebook.

From the paperback I get $12.99*0.8-$3.97 = $6.42
From the Kindle ebook I get $7.99*0.35 = $2.80.

is that -$3.97 the printing and associated costs?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

is that -$3.97 the printing and associated costs?

Yes, the $3.97 is the printing fee for the book. This isn't a book with a large (10,000+) print run produced on an offset press, where the cost of a mass-market paperback is under $1. This is a print-on-demand operation using large format laserprinters to produce each book individually. The book is a 236 page paperback, 8"x5.25".

Originally Posted by pdurrant

It's not just publishers who are asking more for ebooks than for physical books. Amazon ask for more from small publishers.

I sell my print books through Amazon, and the entire distribution chain takes just 20%. (PoD through Lightning Source/Ingram) Of course, I also need to pay for the print cost of each copy sold.

My ebooks are sold through the Amazon Kindle Store. Amazon takes 65% of the RRP of the ebook. For non-US customers, they also add on a $2 wireless download fee.

My latest book has an RRP of $12.99 paperback, $7.99 ebook.

From the paperback I get $12.99*0.8-$3.97 = $6.42
From the Kindle ebook I get $7.99*0.35 = $2.80.

To get as much from a Kindle eBook sale as from a paperback sale, I'd need to price the ebook at $18.34! Or alternatively, if I was willing to only make as much from the paper as from the ebook, I should set the paper price at $8.49, just $0.50 more than the ebook RRP. Clearly Amazon are charging far too much to small publisher for being in the Kindle store.

Amazon are adding another option to the Kindle store soon. A 70% rate (less delivery costs) that will net me $5.56 per ebook sold. But it doesn't arrive until June, and then only for US sales.

Or you could sell your e-books somewhere else. Maybe here? http://www.closed-circle.net

Not you, nor anyone else, is obligated to sell your books on Amazon. Part of what is going to Amazon is for 'real' costs (server and bandwidth costs, administrative costs, payment collection and accounting, …), but also part is the privilege of tapping into the visibility and market share of Amazon. And probably some of it is because they want it and authors are willing to pay it. Isn't capitalism grand?

Now I can see that one could argue that Amazon is in danger of becoming an effective monopoly. I have such concerns myself, especially regarding all but the most popular legacy books in e-book form. The only solution to that is government action or action on the part of authors and buyers to take their product and dollars, respectively, elsewhere.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Or you could sell your e-books somewhere else.

This is true. I'm not compelled to sell ebooks through Amazon. And clearly I have chosen to do so, despite their very bad terms for ebooks, because I feel that their large presence in the ebook marketplace makes it worth while to do so.

And I do sell my ebooks elsewhere. I sell the ePub version at Lulu.com, and once it filters through the Ingram Digital feed, the ePub version should appear at many other retailers.

I wasn't complaining (much) about the Amazon terms as they affect me, but more as an indication that it's not only the publishers that affect ebook pricing, even if it's the publishers that set the RRP.