Discussion: eBook Publishing Model proposals

[igorsk]

Hmm really?
http://xkcd.com/357/

[mrkai]

Yeah man. I was actually talking to this with some Free Software advocates...and they TOTALLY saw it that way too.

Many, Many, MAAAANNNY in the Free Software world that want to engage business feel Stallman is their worse enemy because he cannot tailor his message to the audince he's addressing.

I'm on the "good" side as it were, but looking at it from the other side, I see those pieces as mean, kind of offensive and really "lording it over the lamers" at the same time.

I suppose that someone that believes in the socio-political sides of it (I certainly do) might not see that that isn't the best approach to take, because if they are super-passionate about it like Eric and many others are, they can't do the attachment thing need to move out of the "Vinegar" slot.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by igorsk

Hmm really?
http://xkcd.com/357/

Yeah I've read that. Of course the Bullsh*t reigns supreme with flies, and people enjoy the sugar more, literally and figuratively, so if you go with the scales, unless you are trying to convince fruit flies or about 100,000 different species of flies to publish eBooks...

Try the sugar, smartass

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by mrkai

This reply makes me wonder if you read *all* of the thread before you typed it.

I know a lot of people don't and reply to the first thing that "catches" them

If you did and still found the need to give me this "wrap on the knuckles" I'd sure like to know why...

Yes, I read the whole thread before posting.

I've noticed in many online discussions over the years that people sometimes have a tendency to let their enthusiasm for a subject overwhelm their interest in the potential contributions of others. And sometimes, when one is highly experienced and skilled in one area, it can be hard to remember that others may also have skills and expertise in different areas, perhaps greater than one's own in those areas. And it can be especially difficult, when presented with new information, to acknowledge publicly that perhaps one's own opinions may need to change.

I personally find discussions more enjoyable when there is at least as much "listening" as "talking" by the various participants. This is, however, a personal preference. If the rest of the participants are enjoying the discussion, then by all means, carry on.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by nekokami

And it can be especially difficult, when presented with new information, to acknowledge publicly that perhaps one's own opinions may need to change.

This is exactly why I asked you. It was pretty obvious that after getting the 411 on Baen (thus becoming more informed) I immediately acknowledge this and ran with it...because I could not see with rational business minded people couldn't respond to this in the (what is obvious to me, Mr. Idiot) way most beneficial to their business.

After doing *even more* learning, it became real obvious why, hence the current turn of the discussion.

Baen is definitely the the model to follow...but the sales pitch needs some serious work.

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by mrkai

I've read them all. If this is the general "tone" he utilizes when trying to promote these ideas/change the system from within I can see why it may be difficult.

He's kind of mean and really snide about it all, isn't he?

How to Attract Flies, using Least-to-Most Effective Method/Bait

1. Vinegar
2. Honey
3. Fresh Ripe Bovine Excrement

The "Salvos" Series seems to be firmly pegged in Spot Number One there

The "Salvos" series is clearly polemical writing. This should be clear from its status as an Opinion column, and from its name "Salvos Against Big Brother" is not what you name a business case study, after all. As polemical writing, it's pretty effective. As a business case, it's, well... it's polemical (which isn't a business case).

Eric's given some much more calm, measured and reasonable versions of this argument in a variety of venues. I've heard it at SF conventions. I presume that the presentation he gave the publishing industry folks was of the calm variety, not the polemical variety (although I wasn't there to see it).

Xenophon

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

I've heard it at SF conventions. I presume that the presentation he gave the publishing industry folks was of the calm variety, not the polemical variety (although I wasn't there to see it).

Xenophon

I'd like to read those too. I think in the framework of this discussion those would be better than the "stump speech" tone of the ones I read.

OTOH..you know, it still may be beneficial to have a "SuitBot™ 3000 Mk-II" type on the job, too, because you know, while its nice that Eric can tune the message, his Opinion stuff is kind of, for want of a better word, "Backstabbing" if you understand what I mean. Sort of the notion to being nice "in their face". Possibly can do more harm than good.

I don't know...maybe there already is one that I don't know about. I'm learning here

And it really doesn't come off as even a little sympathetic.

"Polemical"...man, that's why I love this place

It's become my favorite place to post on...such a refreshing change from the...

Well I don't think I have to say it

[astra]

1. There are 2 equaly important things.

a. DRM free.
b. A format that can be transfered to any future reader.

2. Fair price.
I agree to pay $10 for a book that complies with 1.a and 1.b.


Currently, *.lit is the only ebook format I am willing to buy.

[EDIT]
3. I agree to buy DRM books in a format of a reader I possess at any given moment of time for a top price $2.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by mrkai

...is that there is a much higher rate of consumption of these books and a lot of "churn" on the content side so its a volume business. They put those things out like, daily almost don't they?

I think this speaks for itself in a way; other publishers do not believe their products will have the same sale/loss ratio as say Harlequin or Baen...for...whatever reason. If it is widely known that these two entities are successful, perhaps other publishers may judge success by a different metric?

It is certain worth investigating why these two examples are being "ignored" by others, I will grant you that for sure.

I think your comments hint at why two successful publishers are being ignored: They are not taken seriously by Big Pub. With commonly-denigrating tags such as "geeky" sci-fi and "trashy" romance... are there many other genres that are looked down upon more sharply by the general public and the mainstream publishers?

So possibly Big Pub simply assumes that genre successes can't be duplicated by mainstream publishers... or, they could simply be using that as their standard excuse boilerplate to keep everyone else at bay.

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I think your comments hint at why two successful publishers are being ignored: They are not taken seriously by Big Pub. With commonly-denigrating tags such as "geeky" sci-fi and "trashy" romance... are there many other genres that are looked down upon more sharply by the general public and the mainstream publishers?

So possibly Big Pub simply assumes that genre successes can't be duplicated by mainstream publishers... or, they could simply be using that as their standard excuse boilerplate to keep everyone else at bay.

Actually genre fiction is what's keeping publishers in business on the fiction side. Literary fiction is losing money, but genre makes enough to keep everyone happy.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Liviu_5

Actually genre fiction is what's keeping publishers in business on the fiction side. Literary fiction is losing money, but genre makes enough to keep everyone happy.

Really? If so, it does beg the question (even more)...

After all of this discussion, I find myself coming back to the "Castle" publishing mentality, the desire for publishers and successful authors to maintain the status quo as much as possible because they are already on the inside, and by extension they ignore the entreaties of those "peons" on the outside to keep them there. There seems to be no other good explanation for the industry's resistance to e-books.

There are a relatively few people "on the inside" who seem to be active proponents of e-books... and they have not largely demonstrated enough success (read: profit) with e-books to garner any respect from other insiders. So they seem to be looked upon by the insiders as either "visionaries" or "heretics," even though they are still respected for their ability to provide profit to the castle (so their indiscretions are politely overlooked).

When a castle dominates an area, the only way to change things from the outside is to storm it, or to cut it off from the outside. I don't see either of these solutions as beneficial in the short run, and I'm not sure about the long run.

But is there a way to affect change from the inside, even with outside help, when the majority of insiders are against it?

In other words, we're coming up with ideas, but how do we apply them?

[igorsk]

Hopefully we'll see faster progress once Tor is back on Webscriptions...

[NatCh]

Wouldn't it be ironic if Baen grew into a giant conglomerate because of their views on/approach to e-books?

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by NatCh

Wouldn't it be ironic if Baen grew into a giant conglomerate because of their views on/approach to e-books?

Unfortunately in the current incarnation Baen has some limitations built in (they are to a large extent dependent on S&S so they cannot give large advances, publish too many books and so on).

If e-books take off big, Webscription is in a good position for sure.

[jasonkchapman]

Originally Posted by Liviu_5

Actually genre fiction is what's keeping publishers in business on the fiction side. Literary fiction is losing money, but genre makes enough to keep everyone happy.

Still, mainstream publishing people are often quick to dismiss any business-related comparison between mainstream publishing methods and genre publishing methods. They simply see it as a different market, with completely different consumer dynamics, different marketing methods, etc. "Yes, but that's genre" generally ends the conversation right there.

That's why I find two recent developments of particular interest: One is the popularity of a few recent titles that can't exclusively be dropped into the "mainstream", "literary", or "genre" bins that are, nonetheless, drawing readers from all of them. The other is Harlequin's broadening of its imprints into more diverse categories and taking their e-business model with them.

Genre publishers are leading the way toward whatever e-book movement is coming. The second wave will come from the small presses, because the major publishing conglomerates just aren't willing to take what they see as a big gamble. Safe roads generate small, but dependable, dividends for the stock holders.