Downloaded books cost how much?

[JSWolf]

I hate to say this, but EVERY ebook format is CLOSED. Even Digital Editions is going to be closed. Can you tell me one ebook format that isnt closed?

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I hate to say this, but EVERY ebook format is CLOSED.

Not true, depending on your definition of "eBook format."

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Even Digital Editions is going to be closed.

Any you expected something different from Adobe? Digital Editions has been on my "avoid list" since I heard about it.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Can you tell me one ebook format that isnt closed?

I've been reading PalmDOCs for years. Completely open format.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Can you tell me one ebook format that isnt closed?

ePub. HTML with CSS files, ASCII files, all in a zipped package. If you can unzip it, you can read it on anything that can read HTML. Not limited to any piece of hardware (like a Palm). Even if styles and metadata are not supported, you can read the HTML. That's about as open as it gets.

Jack B, I like your thinking about Hardback to paperback to e-book. The prices for e-books still sound high (as do the paperbacks... I'll never pay $15 for a paperback!), and I think the time frame between paperback and e-book will be shorter, or maybe released concurrently with paperback... after all, both are considered the lesser version of the "real" book, the big hardback.

[andym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The things that I list have to form a component of the price of the eBook, just as they do for a paper book. If the eBook sells fewer copies than a paper book, their unit cost is inevitably going to be higher than for a paper book, therefore the eBook could well end up costing more than the paper book. Simply economics.

Well that might true if the e-Book was never published as a paper edition but this discussion is, I assume, about the comparative costs of the same editions of the same book from the same publisher.

Most of the costs of producing an e-Book are shared with the cost of producing the printed edition. The e-Book doesn't of course have to bear the costs of printing, storage, transport or distribution.

The costs to the publisher should normally be a lot less, and there is no reason why they should not charge less fore-books. Of course publishers may take the view that e-Books are an added-value service and something they can charge more for (pdfs of computer manulas or Lonely Planet guidebooks are other examples), and if they think they can make more money that way, they will.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

I think the expectation would be that, since e-books are easier to distribute and store, more flexible to read, easily downloaded online without a trip to the store or a wait for shipping, that e-books would be able to sell in greater numbers than paperbacks and hardbacks. If you price them lower than paperbacks, that increases their likely increased sales. Once e-books catch on and sales are greater than paperback and hardback, you can sell the e-book for less unit cost, and still make a higher profit than that of paperbacks and hardbacks (obviously not counting the cost of printing the pbacks and hbacks).

This is the very principle that justifies the paperback, being sold in larger numbers at lower cost than hardbacks. If paperbacks did not make as much as hardbacks, they would not be printed (as, in fact, many hardbacks never see paperback versions, because it is believed that they will not sell well in that format). It is also how DVDs make up for lost movie profits, by selling more copies at lower cost, and how concerts make up for minimal profits by selling more CDs at lower cost... in entertainment, this economic model holds well.

Apply the same economics to e-books, and you achieve your profit goals when e-books become regular commodities more widely sold than paperbacks. So the catch is to make them desireable enough to outsell paperbacks and hardbacks, either through a great reader experience (the iPod of readers), or with value-added extras (like the extra features on a DVD, or the improved audio quality and extra cuts on a CD).

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

ePub. HTML with CSS files, ASCII files, all in a zipped package. If you can unzip it, you can read it on anything that can read HTML. Not limited to any piece of hardware (like a Palm). Even if styles and metadata are not supported, you can read the HTML. That's about as open as it gets.

If there are no styles supported, then it's not really an ebook. It's just another text file type format. Won't do at all.

Now, here's the kicker, what OPEN ebook format is there that will be sold by the major ebook publishers/shops (other then Baen) that is not full of DRM? Where could I purchase these open ePub books that I can then read or unzip and do with as I please? I don't see this happening anytime soon. The closest I have is LIT and the ability to strip the DRM and/or convert to HTML. So COMMERCIALLY, there won't be any open ebook formats for a LONG time.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Not true, depending on your definition of "eBook format."



Any you expected something different from Adobe? Digital Editions has been on my "avoid list" since I heard about it.



I've been reading PalmDOCs for years. Completely open format.

What is your definition of ebook format?

Digital Editions might help in one way. To help standardize things.

How is a PalmDOC any more open then one of the current ebook formats (except PDF) without DRM? I'm not up on palmDOC that much to really know. But I do know that for example, I can decompile LIT format into HTML and that you cannot argue is a good thing. Plus, the program to do this is open source.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If there are no styles supported, then it's not really an ebook. It's just another text file type format. Won't do at all.

Why not? ePub is essentially an HTML file with instructions on how to display it. Many of the e-books take original HTML, or convert proprietary text to HTML formats, then re-compile it for the specific reader... including LIT. ePub is simply providing the tools with which any reader can potentially do the compiling on its own, without your help.

My only point was, even if you can't read the styles, you can still access the file and manually convert it to your reader of choice.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Now, here's the kicker, what OPEN ebook format is there that will be sold by the major ebook publishers/shops (other then Baen) that is not full of DRM? Where could I purchase these open ePub books that I can then read or unzip and do with as I please? I don't see this happening anytime soon. The closest I have is LIT and the ability to strip the DRM and/or convert to HTML. So COMMERCIALLY, there won't be any open ebook formats for a LONG time.

Well, when you put it that way: No, I don't expect to see major publishers with proprietray content and a serious distrust of a group that openly and publicly hacks, transcribes, and shares their books, to be willingly offering non-DRM, hackable e-book formats anytime soon. But independents are already offering no-DRM e-book formats (myself included). And a format's open-ness is essentially limited to whether or not it's been hacked open, like LIT.

But given time, a common format will prevail, and the public will find the set of tools that work for their needs... at which point, "open" will be replaced with "convenient" (like MP3s are not strictly "open" formats, but they are common, and convenient, so it's cool).

[RWood]

Using Steve's entertainment argument framework, consider the case of audio recordings. Stereo Lps sold for more than mono Lps -- value added of the second audio track (well, ok, L+R, and L-R.) When cassettes and 8-trancks came along they were also priced higher than Lps. When CDs came along they were almost twice the price of Lps with the added value that they never wear out or skip. (Melting, scratching, and warping were never mentioned.) We were told that the price would come down in the future as more CD plants came on line. We are still waiting for the price drop.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Arhh... Curse you, RWoodman! You've discovered the flaw in my fiendish... uh... logic.

Funny, I recall cassettes being cheaper than albums, but I could be wrong. (Prices were also influenced by the popularity of the genre, and I guess we could get waaay deep into that, but... naw.)

And the discrepancy between albums and CDs was solved by... the music industry not producing albums anymore.

Hardbacks, paperbacks, and e-books all exist together. Hardbacks cost more, because they are best editions, on quality paper, perfect-bound, and in color where applicable. Pbacks are on smaller, cheaper paper and a lesser binding, usually no color other than a cover, so they cost less.

By that reasoning, then, e-books should cost less simply because they are effectively ephemeral! NO paper, NO binding, NO color cover, NOthing to show off on your bookshelf! They're the size of a bunch of electrons... try displaying those babies!

Aha! I have you now, RWoodman! My logic is still... completely immaterial if the publishing industry does not deign to follow it...

(Can you tell I'm taking a break from working on my novel today? )

[BooksForABuck]

First, not all eBooks cost more than pBooks. Many small publishers (like www.booksforabuck.com) offer eBooks at prices significantly below paper prices. Many other publishers price their books at the same price regardless of media (which makes a certain amount of sense to me--the value is in the content, not the paper pulp, right?). For a variety of reasons, Amazon choses to discount some of its paper books while paying full wholesale to the publishers. They certainly could do this for eBooks too (through their Mobipocket subsidiary), but they choose not to do so. How is this publisher greed.

On the notion that publishers add no value, let me suggest that the quality of the edited material publishers generate is significantly higher than the quality of the input we receive. Publisher value comes from: (1) wading through the slush pile to pick works that meet our quality standards; (2) working with the author to edit the works to an even higher quality level; (3) promoting the work (you can say this has no value to the reader, but you might never know about a great book without it); (4) Adapting the manuscript to various formats so readers can pick the format that best meets their device needs and personal preference; (5) Investing in all of the aspects of a business including paying author royalties, buying ISBNs, commissioning cover art (again, this may add no value to you, but many readers will not look at an eBook that doesn't come with attractive cover art).

Paper and eBooks are joint products. Looking at either as the 'marginal' product that could be priced at unit marginal cost misses the point. From a publisher standpoint, we need to make sure that our total revenue at least equals our total cost--and the best way to do this is frequently not to give away eBooks but to sell them at a price that yields a contribution to covering overall costs. (Sure some authors and publishers make money by giving away eBooks to encourage pBook sales. If you believe this is a permanent business model, you're essentially saying that eBooks will always represent an insignificant share of the market and that eBooks will always remain an inferior reading experience. Not only do I not agree with this, I believe that eBooks already represent, in many cases, a superior reading experience.

Rob Preece
Publisher, www.BooksForABuck.com

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Digital Editions might help in one way. To help standardize things.

If it's closed, it's doomed to fail. All closed formats fail at some point.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

How is a PalmDOC any more open then one of the current ebook formats (except PDF) without DRM?

PDF is not open. PDF is standard - meaning that the format is available for anyone to create. Well, mostly standard since some features of PDF are not made public (like the DRM that Abobe puts on it).

To me "open" means that I can convert the format to something else.

Once a document is a PDF, you cannot retrieve the original document (or even something useful, IHMO) from the PDF.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'm not up on palmDOC that much to really know.

It was basically made for large memos on the Palm platform. In a sense, it's just a text file - but made readable for the Palm. One of the Mobipocket formats is just an HTML file in a PalmDOC.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But I do know that for example, I can decompile LIT format into HTML

You can decompile some LIT files.

Of course, many of those that can be decompiled are usually based on poor HTML in the first place.

But Microsoft has made this format proprietary, so don't expect any reader (except from Microsoft) to support it.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by BooksForABuck

First, not all eBooks cost more than pBooks.

Right. But no eBook should ever cost more than a pBook.

What gets me is when I go to some commercial eBook site, look up a book, then find the same book at Amazon.com in paper form, in hardcover, and have Amazon's price be less.

There is absolutely no excuse for this.

Originally Posted by BooksForABuck

the value is in the content, not the paper pulp

You got that right. But most of the price of a pBook is related to that paper pulp. Since those costs do not exist for an eBook, the price of the eBook should reflect that.

Originally Posted by BooksForABuck

Publisher value comes from: (1) wading through the slush pile to pick works that meet our quality standards;

No longer needed. Peer networks do a much better job.

Originally Posted by BooksForABuck

(2) working with the author to edit the works to an even higher quality level;

Value to the author only. Not an excuse to make eBooks cost more.

Originally Posted by BooksForABuck

(3) promoting the work (you can say this has no value to the reader, but you might never know about a great book without it);

Unnecessary today. The internet and word of mouth does a much better job.

Posting the first chapter of the book for free, for example, does a much better job of promotion - and costs almost nothing.

Originally Posted by BooksForABuck

(4) Adapting the manuscript to various formats so readers can pick the format that best meets their device needs and personal preference;

Worthless since this promotes closed formats. No adaption is needed. Release the eBook in an open format and let the readers convert as needed.

Originally Posted by BooksForABuck

(5) Investing in all of the aspects of a business including paying author royalties, buying ISBNs, commissioning cover art (again, this may add no value to you, but many readers will not look at an eBook that doesn't come with attractive cover art).

Value to the author only. Not an excuse to make eBooks cost more.

[drgnbear]

I have no trouble paying for a book. Put a CD in the back with the eBook and charge me a few dollars more. I would GLADLY pay more to have both a physical and electronic copy of books. As consumers we have to demand eBook versions from publishers. Politely write a letter to the publishers of your favorite books explaining how much easier an eBook is and how you would be willing to pay more to see it bundled with the hardback. Unless they can see a market to make increased profits it will never happen.

As for DRM. I don't like it but the truth is it's here to stay. Pretty much buck up or don't pay for it. What needs to happen is an open format that can be read on any device, then it won't matter unless you are attempting to pirate material. If that's the case I have no sympathy.

[RWood]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Unnecessary today. The internet and word of mouth does a much better job.

By that logic Steve Jordan should be one of the most successful writers out there today.