Argument in favor of DRM

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by latepaul

Since the analogue loophole is easier to exploit and produces results with less quality loss (potentially none) with ebooks - you'd expect DRM to be more attractive to the music industry. If it worked that is.

Well, the analogue loophole is a lot easier with music anyway (Headphone out socket to AUX in socket).

I've noticed that the anti-DRM crowd always compare with music, why don't the pro-DRM bunch compare with movies?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by webroot

Can some tell that if DRM is made extinct right away how long Amazon can hold their top position? I mean what makes amazon a better choice than other are not it will be all about marketing isnt it?

It's really all about customer service. Amazon are very good at customer service. If publishers decided to stop using DRM I expect that Amazon would be pleased - one less complication for their software development team.

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

I've noticed that the anti-DRM crowd always compare with music, why don't the pro-DRM bunch compare with movies?

That is a very good point. Perhaps the difference is that the DRM on DVDs and Blu-Ray don't really cost the DVD makers any money per copy, since it's done on a per-movie basis rather than a per-copy basis.

Personally, I don't think that the DRM on DVDs and Blu-Ray does any good for the creators, and like other DRM schemes just annoys the people who actually pay money for content. Pirates, of course, never see the DRM at all.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by webroot

After reading these replies I accept that DRM isnt a solution that is going to stay long but most of answers here are on too "theoretical" like "if X is possible then ...then Y is done 100% already and anybody". Can some tell that if DRM is made extinct right away how long Amazon can hold their top position? I mean what makes amazon a better choice than other are not it will be all about marketing isnt it? We are always talking about this peculiar monopoly of amazon in ebook retail business that is rare to see in other industries. Why do people fear amazon ?

Some people here are claiming they can break any DRM, i feel tempted to create a simple DRM client - server demo and give them for a try. I really wonder how you can do!!

DRM isn't the reason people buy books from Amazon. Most people don't even know about DRM. People buy from Amazon because they like the devices, they like the customer service, they like the Kindle store, etc. DRM is not on that list. Amazon really isn't a monopoly, there is still B&N and Kobo.

If there was an unbreakable DRM, then why isn't anyone using it? I'm not saying I could break DRM, but that's not the point. Someone could, and it only takes one. If no one breaks your DRM, it's because no one is interested in the content.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Well, the analogue loophole is a lot easier with music anyway (Headphone out socket to AUX in socket).

I've noticed that the anti-DRM crowd always compare with music, why don't the pro-DRM bunch compare with movies?

Because eBooks are that much different then movies. We have different eBook formats. We have different formatting wants.

It's not like a DVD where I can play if in my DVD player, my Blu-Ray player, or my parents Blu-Ray player.

If I have a Kindle, I cannot buy a DRMed ePub and read it. If I have a Kobo Reader, I cannot buy an eBook from Amazon and read it with a Kobo. It doesn't work that way. Also, the formatting on a lot of eBooks is very poor and needs fixing. I cannot do that with DRM.

So no, you cannot compare the DRM of DVD/Blu-Ray to that of eBooks. Also, with eBooks, the Device has to be registered to the same account as the eBook in order to read it with the DRM. A movie can be played in any compatible player with no need to register it. A Region 1 DVD can be played in ANY region 1 DVD/Blu-Ray player in existence.

So that movie comparison is a big fat fail.

[webroot]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

DRM isn't the reason people buy books from Amazon. Most people don't even know about DRM. People buy from Amazon because they like the devices, they like the customer service, they like the Kindle store, etc. DRM is not on that list. Amazon really isn't a monopoly, there is still B&N and Kobo.

If there was an unbreakable DRM, then why isn't anyone using it? I'm not saying I could break DRM, but that's not the point. Someone could, and it only takes one. If no one breaks your DRM, it's because no one is interested in the content.

i said, it is publisher that prefer selling on amazon because of good DRM (or call it part of amazon ecosystem) buyer will keep buying from amazon as long as it has largest collection of titles.

if you or anybody can break any DRM then is there a crack for lastest version of adept or kindle ? another thing to consider is if breaking drm is so easy then those many peoples spending 10k for adept licensing would be total insane.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by webroot

if you or anybody can break any DRM then is there a crack for lastest version of adept or kindle ?

Of course there is. There has never been any appreciable amount of time that mobipocket/Amazon or Adobe's Adept encryption couldn't be removed in one way or another.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by webroot

i said, it is publisher that prefer selling on amazon because of good DRM (or call it part of amazon ecosystem)

You can call apples oranges, but that doesn't make them the same thing.
Amazon's ecosystem is its store, its readers, the integration of the two, and their customer service. DRM has NOTHING to do with why that system is so successful.
That system works just fine even with the many non-DRM titles they offer.
Other than the fact that many publishers just would not allow their books to be sold without DRM (see below), many of us would argue that Amazon's ecosystem is successful IN SPITE of the DRM, certainly not because of it.

Originally Posted by webroot

if you or anybody can break any DRM then is there a crack for lastest version of adept or kindle ?

You are new around here, aren't you.
Google Apprentice Alf. And you might want to do a bit of searching and reading the MANY existing threads on the topic.

another thing to consider is if breaking drm is so easy then those many peoples spending 10k for adept licensing would be total insane.

Many of us think they are, yes. Or at least, that they are making decisions with incomplete data, or out of emotion and instinct rather than data.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by webroot

i said, it is publisher that prefer selling on amazon because of good DRM (or call it part of amazon ecosystem) buyer will keep buying from amazon as long as it has largest collection of titles.

Kobo has DRM. B&N has DRM. Thus, Amazon's success can't be explained by DRM. Amazon's success must be due to other reasons than DRM.

if you or anybody can break any DRM then is there a crack for lastest version of adept or kindle ? another thing to consider is if breaking drm is so easy then those many peoples spending 10k for adept licensing would be total insane.

You cannot conclude from the fact that people buy software that it cannot be cracked. People do in fact purchase material even when they could simply copy it. DRM is easily defeated, yet people still buy books. TOR has eliminated DRM, and hasn't noticed any decrease in sales.

There are of course, other reasons that businesses would not illegally copy software. The fines can be very steep - that $10,000 saved by illegally copying is more than made up for by the fines that can results. Plus, if you make illegal copies, you won't get support from the company. If your employees attempt to contact customer support, it can tip them off that your company is using their software illegally.

Thus we must conclude that it is not insane to purchase software when it could be illegally copied.

[webroot]

i havent tried using any online ( or otherwise ) drm stripper i guess they could be slightly outdated. i always thought hacking and cracking is easier in the initial phase of any evolving technology later that system gets more secure and eventually tradtional hacking becomes useless. take an example of various os tricks that we used to do in past and online hacking and all that talks of sql injection, todays secure financial transactions etc that dont work anymore. today machine are greatly secured and mostly hacking incidents are seem to happen due to negligience simply hecause there is too much to monitor. but if you say newer versions of drms are equally weak then i do not understand why anyone licensing them. but i doubt that in future you can break them so easily.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

So no, you cannot compare the DRM of DVD/Blu-Ray to that of eBooks. Also, with eBooks, the Device has to be registered to the same account as the eBook in order to read it with the DRM. A movie can be played in any compatible player with no need to register it. A Region 1 DVD can be played in ANY region 1 DVD/Blu-Ray player in existence.

So that movie comparison is a big fat fail.

Sorry. I was more talking about digital only movies, iPlayer, netflix, LoveFilm, Ultraviolet, Google, Sky etc
All of which are DRM'd (and I think can all be downloaded for offline viewing, generally only limited to a fixed device or app).

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by webroot

i havent tried using any online ( or otherwise ) drm stripper i guess they could be slightly outdated. i always thought hacking and cracking is easier in the initial phase of any evolving technology later that system gets more secure and eventually tradtional hacking becomes useless. take an example of various os tricks that we used to do in past and online hacking and all that talks of sql injection, todays secure financial transactions etc that dont work anymore. today machine are greatly secured and mostly hacking incidents are seem to happen due to negligience simply hecause there is too much to monitor. but if you say newer versions of drms are equally weak then i do not understand why anyone licensing them. but i doubt that in future you can break them so easily.

You're confusing breaking into systems with decrypting DRM. There is a difference between keeping you out of a system and keeping you from getting at data in a file. Once you have the file, it's not difficult to get the data from it.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Sorry. I was more talking about digital only movies, iPlayer, netflix, LoveFilm, Ultraviolet, Google, Sky etc
All of which are DRM'd (and I think can all be downloaded for offline viewing, generally only limited to a fixed device or app).

The movie industry is in the process of TRYING to do something that the ebook industry might try to do shortly, if they don't go the way of the music industry and give up on DRM.

The movie industry is TRYING to make the content available easy, in whatever format and on whatever device the user cares to use.

Systems like Ultraviolet, and the inclusion of digital copies when you buy a disc, are steps toward giving users the access to the content that they want, which is the main complaint most of us have about ebook DRM, aside from concerns about obsolescence and losing access. We want to be able to use the content in the many we choose, on the devices we choose.

The movie industry has not totally succeeded. The digital movie systems can be cumbersome and inconvenient. It is often both faster and easier to download a pirated movie than to get the official system to work.

They do have two additional factors in their favor that gives their DRM an advantage over ebooks.

1. It take measurably more time, effort and knowledge to strip the DRM from a movie than it does from an ebook.
2. A pirated copy of a movie is quite often inferior in quality to a genuine copy.

Both those factors add value to using the "official" mechanisms for movies over the "unofficial" ways.

ApK

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by webroot

i havent tried using any online ( or otherwise ) drm stripper i guess they could be slightly outdated. i always thought hacking and cracking is easier in the initial phase of any evolving technology later that system gets more secure and eventually tradtional hacking becomes useless. take an example of various os tricks that we used to do in past and online hacking and all that talks of sql injection, todays secure financial transactions etc that dont work anymore. today machine are greatly secured and mostly hacking incidents are seem to happen due to negligience simply hecause there is too much to monitor. but if you say newer versions of drms are equally weak then i do not understand why anyone licensing them. but i doubt that in future you can break them so easily.

I believe this confirms what I said earlier about "script kiddies".

Yes. The easy, braindead ways of "os tricks" get patched over time. But there are always exploits if you actually know what you are doing. Security does not really increase over time, it just gets different.

You might also like to consider the difference between hacking someone else's machine and hacking your own machine. You may be unaware -- DeDRM is the latter.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by ApK

The movie industry is in the process of TRYING to do something that the ebook industry might try to do shortly, if they don't go the way of the music industry and give up on DRM.

The movie industry is TRYING to make the content available easy, in whatever format and on whatever device the user cares to use.

Systems like Ultraviolet, and the inclusion of digital copies when you buy a disc, are steps toward giving users the access to the content that they want, which is the main complaint most of us have about ebook DRM, aside from concerns about obsolescence and losing access. We want to be able to use the content in the many we choose, on the devices we choose.

The movie industry has not totally succeeded. The digital movie systems can be cumbersome and inconvenient. It is often both faster and easier to download a pirated movie than to get the official system to work.

They do have two additional factors in their favor that gives their DRM an advantage over ebooks.

1. It take measurably more time, effort and knowledge to strip the DRM from a movie than it does from an ebook.
2. A pirated copy of a movie is quite often inferior in quality to a genuine copy.

Both those factors add value to using the "official" mechanisms for movies over the "unofficial" ways.

ApK

Oh, I'm not arguing in favor of DRM, just wondering why the pro DRM crowd don't use film/tv as the counter every time someone says DRM has to fail because of music.

To watch DVD's on a system with no DVD's (netbook, tablet etc) I just rip the iso and play it with a Virtual drive, chews up more space than converting to mp4 but keeps quality intact and is as simple as ripping a cd.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by webroot

but if you say newer versions of drms are equally weak then i do not understand why anyone licensing them. but i doubt that in future you can break them so easily.

There is a basic problem with DRM. You have to give the encryption key to the end user.