A Good Analogy - Page 3

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-13-2007, 05:53 PM

I'm not sure how well advertisers would go for ping-back. The problem with it is, they really have no way of knowing whether a book copied to a PC, a PDA, a second PC (maybe at work) and a smartphone are being seen by "different sets of eyes"... those could all be my computers. An advertiser wouldn't want to feel they are being charged for more people than are seeing their ads. With a per-download pricing, they know exactly what they are paying for. And if others see their ads through sharing, they are actually saving money.

Publishers may not like it that way, but on the other hand, by the point that advertisers bail them out, they've lost the right to argue about it.

Again, if advertisers were subsidizing to the extent that the books were free, no proprietary formats or DRM would be needed, in fact, would work counter to what the advertisers wanted... maximum viewings. So I'm sure they would encourage a good all-around freely-available format. ePub might be just the ticket for them because e-readers can be designed to convert it themselves, or it can be converted to any other format as needed.

nekokami · 08-13-2007, 09:25 PM

I was thinking a ping-back when the reader gets to the page the ad is on, not just when the whole file is open, so it wouldn't matter if one person were reading the same file on multiple devices. That would also encourage publishers to actually publish good content, i.e. content worth reading through to the end. Or even content worth reading more than once!

sea2stars · 08-13-2007, 10:47 PM

hrm... late to the thread, but I'm not sure if the web or TV analogies work.

How many of you have web ad-blocking software that comes with your computer/ISP/browser?

Publishers, in this digital age, are concerned with keeping control of their content. How has the TV/Cable/Sat industry and freaked out advertisers reacted to Tivo and, in my case, home built HTPC (Home Theater PC) users "timeshifting"? They're trying to make it so people can't record their content, through the use of broadcast flags, and as a side benefit force people to watch their Ads. Take the Nielsen ratings for example. They're no where near as accurate as they once were; with people using their DVRs to watch shows at their convenience. Hrmm.. at least Nielsen is purely volunteer. A ping-back ad system sounds like a huge invasion of personal privacy to me. Well.. Sony has been known for their rootkits.

TV, web, books, and magazines are all very standard vehicles for putting ads into. As for ebooks, I can see ads maybe helping to lower the cost of ebooks and readers, but I think we'll be with DRM and ebabel for some time.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-14-2007, 07:39 AM

Ah... I wasn't following, I thought you were referring to ping-backs on the e-books themselves... not the ads!

I get you, now, but there's one thing: E-books won't necessarily be read on online devices, so you can't depend on ping-backs to pass information along. Some readers, say, smartphones, may be able to handle an interactive ad, but a device like the Sony Reader being used away from its computer connection won't be able to click-through to the site. And some e-book software won't be able to handle links (I suppose that will be decided by whichever combo of hardware and software becomes popular.)

E-book ads won't necessarily be interactive like banner ads... they may just look like them due to the digital display similarities. Given the size of many e-book readers' screens, most advertisers will probably opt for full-page ads anyway.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-14-2007, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sea2stars

How many of you have web ad-blocking software that comes with your computer/ISP/browser?

That's true. However, I've noticed that to access some internet content, you sometimes have to reset ad blockers to accept javascript, and you get the ads anyway. And some ads simply don't get blocked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sea2stars

Publishers, in this digital age, are concerned with keeping control of their content.

Sure they are. On the other hand, the book and magazine industry is declining in sales, and the e-book industry hasn't taken off. Maybe that's a sign of too much effort put into control, and not enough into sales and marketing. The publishing industry is not doing too well as an industry, by refusing to enter the 21st century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sea2stars

How has the TV/Cable/Sat industry and freaked out advertisers reacted to Tivo and, in my case, home built HTPC (Home Theater PC) users "timeshifting"? They're trying to make it so people can't record their content, through the use of broadcast flags, and as a side benefit force people to watch their Ads.

But the key is, they are making an effort and adapting to the new technology, as opposed to publishers' sticking their heads in the sand and acting like it doesn't exist.

If advertisers listened to the movie industries' slogan "Movies are your best entertainment," and had not taken a chance on the new medium of television, we might be like countries with 2-3 state-sponsored stations, and that's it. (We won't debate whether what we have now is much better...

)

Advertisers have a great opportunity to take advantage of a new medium that apparently cannot manage to orient or sustain itself without outside funds and guidance, and which has the potential to reach everyone in the country that has an electronic device of some sort, even if it's just a cellphone... and that's a big market. Being able to groom the delivery medium to best deliver your content to all those people... that makes good business sense.

Sure, people will develop ad-blockers, if the ads are too pervasive, but many people will see them regardless... not everybody goes through the trouble of blocking ads, they just ignore them. And, like I said before, if the ad is well-targeted to the consumer, they won't object to the ads at all.

HarryT · 08-14-2007, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

If advertisers listened to the movie industries' slogan "Movies are your best entertainment," and had not taken a chance on the new medium of television, we might be like countries with 2-3 state-sponsored stations, and that's it. (We won't debate whether what we have now is much better...

)

Just for interest, IMHO the two taxpayer-funded, ad-free, terrestrial BBC TV channels here in the UK have 10x more "worthwhile" content on them than the 200+ crappy commercial stations I can also receive via satellite

. The enormous benefit the BBC has is that, because it doesn't have to make a profit and is funded by the taxpayer, it's able to make programmes which wouldn't be commercial viable for a broadcaster which has to make a profit - "costume dramas" and so on.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-14-2007, 09:58 AM

Like I said, I didn't want to get into a quality debate (in the U.S., we get some great non-commercial material through PBS, too). My point was only about quantity, as in "Look at how much advertiser-subsidized TV content there is." Quantity gives you variety... more subjects, more artists, more viewpoints. More for the public to enjoy (or at least have access to).

HarryT · 08-14-2007, 10:07 AM

Indeed, yes. My only point is that "more" does not necessarily equate to "better"

.

sea2stars · 08-14-2007, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

But the key is, they are making an effort and adapting to the new technology, as opposed to publishers' sticking their heads in the sand and acting like it doesn't exist.

I think you missed my point. Like the majority of media publishers(TV, web, etc), they aren't trying to adapt to new technology. They're doing their best to block and avoid dealing with it. They've already lobbied the FCC to deny people the ability to record digital content and thankfully, for now, it was tossed out in appeals court. Cable companies have fought against the use of CableCARDs for years now. They know that their customers are demanding more digital content, but unless it's on their terms and under their thumb they'll continue to drag their feet. How many digital projection system exist in the US?

I agree that advertisers should get involved. I'm just not sure how they could help guide the industry into a more cohesive form; with all of the available proprietary formats and devices. It's not like mp3 players, or VHS vs Beta Max, or Bluray vs HD DVD, or cable vs satellite. Eh. Maybe if they helped Sony, Bookean and Amazon to better market ebooks and readers in the first place then that might be a start.

Hah. Maybe they should start simple and design their own eink readers and start with bathrooms first; nothing like a captive audience.

nekokami · 08-14-2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I get you, now, but there's one thing: E-books won't necessarily be read on online devices, so you can't depend on ping-backs to pass information along. Some readers, say, smartphones, may be able to handle an interactive ad, but a device like the Sony Reader being used away from its computer connection won't be able to click-through to the site. And some e-book software won't be able to handle links (I suppose that will be decided by whichever combo of hardware and software becomes popular.)

I was thinking that a device like the Reader could save up the pings and send them when it was next online to get more books. Sure, people could defeat this system if they were especially concerned, but why bother? Another advantage is that this would track the ads, not the book content, which might help consumers feel better from a privacy perspective. I think it would depend on how much information was being collected (I think very little would be needed).

Regarding ad blockers-- note that they don't work on text ads.

This would encourage advertisers to keep their ads minimalist -- less annoying, and potentially more informative. I would still hope that most ads in fiction would be for other fiction by the same or similar authors. Click-through ads would be good, too, and again, an offline system could just save them up and click you through next time you're connected.

If I had the time (and the programming skills, but that amounts to the same thing in my case), I'd set up a system like this myself and try to get some authors interested, using Google Ads.

rupescissa · 08-14-2007, 10:53 AM

I am unable to understand why anybody, other than a publisher, would ever advocate advertising inside of an e-book--especially ads that "ping back" to advertisers to let them know when the reader has reached a certain part of a book or seen a certain ad.

Are we so desparate to have our hobby, or pet reading method, attain wider approval that we would put up with advertising inside of a book? Or is it that we want advertisers to play the role of the guys in the white hats and come in and fix the pervasive confusion in the e-book martketplace?

Books and internal advertising do not go together. We accept ads in movie theaters, on TV, and on radio, because that's the way these media developed. There were ads on radio almost from the beginning. Even publically-funded broadcasts carry ads (for other public programs). We accept that because we're used to it. We don't accept ads inside the track order of CD's because we paid for the objects and the track selection and would not tolerate an interruption of the flow of music.

A book is an extended work of human discourse. Book reading is a private, solitary mental interaction with this extended work of human discourse. To invite advertisers into that space is to devalue the space, the reading experience, and the rightful expectation of freedom from commercial (or political) intrusion or interruption. Books don't have ads--and never have--except for low-end mass-market paperbacks, and they have ads outside of the actual reading space.

Let's not ask for commercial interests that have no interest on our personal pleasure, learning or thinking for "help" of any kind.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-14-2007, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Indeed, yes. My only point is that "more" does not necessarily equate to "better"

.

Can't argue with that. Won't argue with that. (I'm still making the effort to stay on the "better" side of the line!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sea2stars

I think you missed my point. Like the majority of media publishers(TV, web, etc), they aren't trying to adapt to new technology. They're doing their best to block and avoid dealing with it.

But that is exactly my point: Knowing this is the case, advertisers need to step in, to make the tough choices for the publishers and force them to deal with the new technology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sea2stars

I agree that advertisers should get involved. I'm just not sure how they could help guide the industry into a more cohesive form; with all of the available proprietary formats and devices. It's not like mp3 players, or VHS vs Beta Max, or Bluray vs HD DVD, or cable vs satellite. Eh. Maybe if they helped Sony, Bookean and Amazon to better market ebooks and readers in the first place then that might be a start.

It really doesn't matter which combination of formats and players they pick... just so they pick one, and get everyone to run with it. Granted, hopefully it'll be something closer to ePub than "Fred's personal e-book reader dingus," especially since something like ePub can be converted to other formats by the user, it is based on open standards and not proprietary at all.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-14-2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rupescissa

I am unable to understand why anybody, other than a publisher, would ever advocate advertising inside of an e-book... is it that we want advertisers to play the role of the guys in the white hats and come in and fix the pervasive confusion in the e-book martketplace?

Well... yeah, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rupescissa

Let's not ask for commercial interests that have no interest on our personal pleasure, learning or thinking for "help" of any kind.

I'm sorry... were we talking about advertisers, or publishers?

JSWolf · 08-14-2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sea2stars

I think you missed my point. Like the majority of media publishers(TV, web, etc), they aren't trying to adapt to new technology. They're doing their best to block and avoid dealing with it. They've already lobbied the FCC to deny people the ability to record digital content and thankfully, for now, it was tossed out in appeals court. Cable companies have fought against the use of CableCARDs for years now. They know that their customers are demanding more digital content, but unless it's on their terms and under their thumb they'll continue to drag their feet. How many digital projection system exist in the US?

I agree that advertisers should get involved. I'm just not sure how they could help guide the industry into a more cohesive form; with all of the available proprietary formats and devices. It's not like mp3 players, or VHS vs Beta Max, or Bluray vs HD DVD, or cable vs satellite.

Advertisers can say what they want with their money. If they got together and said ... "If you put digital protection on your digital stream, we will not advertise" the network would have to cave in. Could you imagine a network that has no advertising dollars coming in? They'd cave like you would not believe. Money speaks louder then words.

nekokami · 08-14-2007, 11:01 AM

rupescissa, I'd rather have books with ads in than no new books at all. Authors might write books even if they can't get paid, but I don't want to count on it. Publishers won't pay authors unless they have a revenue stream from which to make the payments. Publishers are currently leaning toward locked DRM formats to ensure that revenue stream, which I think are a very bad idea. Personally, I'd rather see publishers take the Baen route and publish books in open formats at reasonable prices, but if some publishers won't go that way, then other ways to encourage open formats are worth looking into. Paying for content via advertising is one. It's a thought experiment at this point. What's your suggestion?

08-14-2007, 10:53 AM	#41
rupescissa Rupescissa Posts: 5 Karma: 244 Join Date: Jun 2007 Device: Nokia 770	Why? I am unable to understand why anybody, other than a publisher, would ever advocate advertising inside of an e-book--especially ads that "ping back" to advertisers to let them know when the reader has reached a certain part of a book or seen a certain ad. Are we so desparate to have our hobby, or pet reading method, attain wider approval that we would put up with advertising inside of a book? Or is it that we want advertisers to play the role of the guys in the white hats and come in and fix the pervasive confusion in the e-book martketplace? Books and internal advertising do not go together. We accept ads in movie theaters, on TV, and on radio, because that's the way these media developed. There were ads on radio almost from the beginning. Even publically-funded broadcasts carry ads (for other public programs). We accept that because we're used to it. We don't accept ads inside the track order of CD's because we paid for the objects and the track selection and would not tolerate an interruption of the flow of music. A book is an extended work of human discourse. Book reading is a private, solitary mental interaction with this extended work of human discourse. To invite advertisers into that space is to devalue the space, the reading experience, and the rightful expectation of freedom from commercial (or political) intrusion or interruption. Books don't have ads--and never have--except for low-end mass-market paperbacks, and they have ads outside of the actual reading space. Let's not ask for commercial interests that have no interest on our personal pleasure, learning or thinking for "help" of any kind.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
eBook vs paper book analogy	Dave W	News	28	10-07-2009 03:12 PM

08-13-2007, 05:53 PM	#31
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	I'm not sure how well advertisers would go for ping-back. The problem with it is, they really have no way of knowing whether a book copied to a PC, a PDA, a second PC (maybe at work) and a smartphone are being seen by "different sets of eyes"... those could all be my computers. An advertiser wouldn't want to feel they are being charged for more people than are seeing their ads. With a per-download pricing, they know exactly what they are paying for. And if others see their ads through sharing, they are actually saving money. Publishers may not like it that way, but on the other hand, by the point that advertisers bail them out, they've lost the right to argue about it. Again, if advertisers were subsidizing to the extent that the books were free, no proprietary formats or DRM would be needed, in fact, would work counter to what the advertisers wanted... maximum viewings. So I'm sure they would encourage a good all-around freely-available format. ePub might be just the ticket for them because e-readers can be designed to convert it themselves, or it can be converted to any other format as needed.

08-13-2007, 09:25 PM	#32
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	I was thinking a ping-back when the reader gets to the page the ad is on, not just when the whole file is open, so it wouldn't matter if one person were reading the same file on multiple devices. That would also encourage publishers to actually publish good content, i.e. content worth reading through to the end. Or even content worth reading more than once!

08-13-2007, 10:47 PM	#33
sea2stars Zealot Posts: 104 Karma: 64 Join Date: Dec 2006 Device: eb1150, Sony Reader	hrm... late to the thread, but I'm not sure if the web or TV analogies work. How many of you have web ad-blocking software that comes with your computer/ISP/browser? Publishers, in this digital age, are concerned with keeping control of their content. How has the TV/Cable/Sat industry and freaked out advertisers reacted to Tivo and, in my case, home built HTPC (Home Theater PC) users "timeshifting"? They're trying to make it so people can't record their content, through the use of broadcast flags, and as a side benefit force people to watch their Ads. Take the Nielsen ratings for example. They're no where near as accurate as they once were; with people using their DVRs to watch shows at their convenience. Hrmm.. at least Nielsen is purely volunteer. A ping-back ad system sounds like a huge invasion of personal privacy to me. Well.. Sony has been known for their rootkits. TV, web, books, and magazines are all very standard vehicles for putting ads into. As for ebooks, I can see ads maybe helping to lower the cost of ebooks and readers, but I think we'll be with DRM and ebabel for some time.

08-14-2007, 07:39 AM	#34
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	Ah... I wasn't following, I thought you were referring to ping-backs on the e-books themselves... not the ads! I get you, now, but there's one thing: E-books won't necessarily be read on online devices, so you can't depend on ping-backs to pass information along. Some readers, say, smartphones, may be able to handle an interactive ad, but a device like the Sony Reader being used away from its computer connection won't be able to click-through to the site. And some e-book software won't be able to handle links (I suppose that will be decided by whichever combo of hardware and software becomes popular.) E-book ads won't necessarily be interactive like banner ads... they may just look like them due to the digital display similarities. Given the size of many e-book readers' screens, most advertisers will probably opt for full-page ads anyway.

08-14-2007, 09:58 AM	#37
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	Like I said, I didn't want to get into a quality debate (in the U.S., we get some great non-commercial material through PBS, too). My point was only about quantity, as in "Look at how much advertiser-subsidized TV content there is." Quantity gives you variety... more subjects, more artists, more viewpoints. More for the public to enjoy (or at least have access to).

08-14-2007, 10:07 AM	#38
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Indeed, yes. My only point is that "more" does not necessarily equate to "better" .

08-14-2007, 11:01 AM	#45
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	rupescissa, I'd rather have books with ads in than no new books at all. Authors might write books even if they can't get paid, but I don't want to count on it. Publishers won't pay authors unless they have a revenue stream from which to make the payments. Publishers are currently leaning toward locked DRM formats to ensure that revenue stream, which I think are a very bad idea. Personally, I'd rather see publishers take the Baen route and publish books in open formats at reasonable prices, but if some publishers won't go that way, then other ways to encourage open formats are worth looking into. Paying for content via advertising is one. It's a thought experiment at this point. What's your suggestion?

Advert

Advert