Amazon against the rest, or where to get your books

[emellaich]

Bottom line, I doubt very much that we will be using ePub/mobi 20 years from now.

In its current form, I have and enjoy a smartphone, ereader, iPad, and a laptop. I hope that within twenty years we can cut back to one or two devices. This will also likely lead to software changes.

I don't care if you use Sony, Apple, Amazon, or Barnes and Noble; the odds are that some (most? all?)of us will wake up one day to discover we own a bunch of books in an obsolete format.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

You can accidentally throw an out-of-print pbook in the toilet, rip it, lose it. Don't assume that your current ebooks are beeing able to be used on future devices in 2, 5, 10 years. It is very nice today that you can buy a ebook and have multiple copies of it on different devices. You should be thankful for it - they just as well could make you rebuy all your books (and not just Amazon) if you get a new device.

?? I do not only *expect* to be able to use such a book 50 years from now (be it converted or in it's own format), I *demand* it, just as I can use a paper book 50 years from now if I take good care of it. That is why I strip all the DRM, and archive the original version, the de-DRM-ed version, and the two most common formats, azw / mobi and epub, at this time. If another common format arises, a conversion tool will come along, and I will add that format too.

I am sorry, but you contradict yourself there. Compatible after DRM-removal which in itself is a conversion whether you like it or not makes them non-interoperatable before. Legally you cannot strip the DRM in every part of the world anyway. What I described also works for 100% legal stuff, not even including grey-areas (removing of DRM is a grey area).

After stripping DRM, the files should be just a clean format, and therefore they are operable. I don't care if it is legally allowed or not. Who is going to check? Do you think some policeman will barge into my home, checking to see what books I have bought, and then seeing if the DRM is still intact? Come on.

Nobody cares what I do with the file; Read it, delete it, put it on a floppy and eat it, or remove DRM; it doesn't matter to anyone, as long as I don't go about distributing the file.

Again, variety does not make epub bigger, it even hurts as there is more things that all need to stay compatible with each other. As you state Amazon is big enough to maintain [the mobi format]. Epub is split up, and it does not look like it is going to get any better.

Amaon is big enough *now*. Who says they will be big enough in the future, to maintain the status quo? And even if there are several different versions of EPUB, I expect that they will be quite interoperable and convertible. If one of them disappears and you have files in that specific EPUB format, I think you stand a better chance converting them to something else as opposed to having an Amazon-only file.

And don't say Amazon will never disappear; even bigger and more important companies than Amaon have gone broke.

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

As for TOC (clickable), that is another weak point of epub, as it does not require your to have it, but mobi does. So you would not have to worry about having to ADD a TOC when editing a mobi.

Actually, often you do, because while Amazon says that a Mobi submitted to them should have both an HTML and and NCX TOC, quite often with commercial works it doesn't, whereas the ePub version does (I collect a lot of the publisher promo freebies, which often show up in multiple stores so I have the files to compare).

As far as I can tell, the lack of the latter is often due to poor specification of the NCX TOC in the OPF, so that Amazon's conversion tools miss out on it and that's something I have to fix manually by tweaking the ePub, if I can be bothered.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Methinks you put too much faith in epub's annointment as a "standard".

Whether or not ePub has been anointed as a "standard" in your view is irrelevant. It was created to be an open standard interoperable royalty-free format by the IDPF, and is documented as one, such that people know how it should behave and how to implement tools that work with it. And multiple parties do in fact currently use it as one when creating and distributing and readily create tools to go along with it.

Now, maybe it might languish and end up being one of those abandoned standards replaced by something else as the W3C's XHTML 2.x proposal has been superseded by HTML5 or that advanced XLink thing that went no further than the simplest linking functionality.

But the point remains that I can create and edit an ePub using nothing more than a plain text editor and a zip utility and I expect to be able to keep doing that in the future, and DRM considerations aside, be able to easily extract the textual innards to convert into the next-generation format using only a zip utility and a plain text editor.

And that puts it a step above Mobi, on which you're dependent upon whatever tools and docs Amazon provides, and whatever tools and docs anyone else can reverse-engineer, which I'm quite grateful for and use on a weekly basis, but it would be nice to be able to do without.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Believe as you will, about the value of epub as a "standard", but don't be surprised if by this time next year, the current four-way DRM splintering of epub becomes a five-way forking of the internal plumbing.

I did mention that I mainly get DRM-free books, did I not? And for the purposes of usage, yes, the DRM-free people stick to the standard proposed spec, or reasonably closely enough. And even underneath the DRM, B&N and Adobe and even Kobo's books do mostly conform with the spec when it comes to the actual text and organization of it.

One might as well argue that Mobi is an equally if not more-so moving target in this area, as Amazon keeps messing with the DRM and changing the way the PID/kinfo works in conjunction with the device/software apps to decrypt the files. Not to mention KF8 and Topaz.

Provided you can get at it, it's what's underneath that counts, and the amount of work it takes to keep the unofficial Mobi helper tools up to date can be seen in the efforts to understand the changes made to the wrapper of the new default KF8+ output of the new version of KindleGen, so that the mobiunpack and kindlestrip tools can be used with it, which currently run to +5 pages combined.

Amazon, of course, seem to have removed entirely from download availability the old version of KindleGen which would have created Mobi only (well, actually Mobi+all your source files stuffed after it), although one can still use Mobipocket Creator if one is on a Windows computer, or Calibre which relies on such reverse-engineered findings.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

But the point remains that I can create and edit an ePub using nothing more than a plain text editor and a zip utility and I expect to be able to keep doing that in the future, and DRM considerations aside, be able to easily extract the textual innards to convert into the next-generation format using only a zip utility and a plain text editor.

And that puts it a step above Mobi, on which you're dependent upon whatever tools and docs Amazon provides, and whatever tools and docs anyone else can reverse-engineer, which I'm quite grateful for and use on a weekly basis, but it would be nice to be able to do without.

Very good point... actually tried my hand at a short text yesterday and submitted to HarryT for some comments. They were positive, with only a few suggestions that I could incorporate easily. I have used only Sigil. It's an amazing piece of work (Sigil, not the eBook ), but basically is comes down to being a text editor that can edit stuff inside a ZIP-file without first unpacking it. As the EPUB-format is basically HTML + CSS with some extra rules tacked on, it is exceedingly easy to work with; at least for me.

Basically, if you are a webdesigner (someone who can do front-end web development), then you can very easily create an eBook, even without using specialized tools, and I think that's very good.

One might as well argue that Mobi is an equally if not more-so moving target in this area, as Amazon keeps messing with the DRM and changing the way the PID/kinfo works in conjunction with the device/software apps to decrypt the files. Not to mention KF8 and Topaz.

The problem with any multi-vendor standard is that it may splinter, but you still have a choice to go one way or another, or maybe make the different versions of the standard work together. (See Linux, for example. If a distribution does something you don't like, you move to another one, keeping the same programs.)
The problem with any one-vendor standard is that you have to "eat" what that vendor gives you. (see Windows, for example. If you *need* Windows, because of some programs you use, then you'll have to use what MS serves you at a given point.)

Originally Posted by ATDrake

Provided you can get at it, it's what's underneath that counts, and the amount of work it takes to keep the unofficial Mobi helper tools up to date can be seen in the efforts to understand the changes made to the wrapper of the new default KF8+ output of the new version of KindleGen, so that the mobiunpack and kindlestrip tools can be used with it, which currently run to +5 pages combined.

Hm. I've read those threads for a bit, but even being a programmer, I'd be much more inclined to use EPUB if I wanted to create (or change) an eBook... at least at this point in time. Nothwithstanding, I hope that the people working on that stuff can get it done, so people can still convert to and from the Kindle format in the future.

I think I've made my decision. While I like the Kindle best with regard to hardware at this time (when going by the many reviews on the 'net), for now I will stick with EPUB eBooks as the source file as much as possible.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

Whether or not ePub has been anointed as a "standard" in your view is irrelevant. It was created to be an open standard interoperable royalty-free format by the IDPF, and is documented as one, such that people know how it should behave and how to implement tools that work with it.

All that makes it a *specification* not a standard.
There is a difference.

There are dozens of international standard-setting bodies (ISO, ECMA, etc); epub has been certified by none and has been submitted to none. It builds on true standards like HTML and XML but it is not itself a product standard.
More, true standards come with trademarks and certification penalties and enforcement power behind them.

<idpf> control over epub ends once they "flip it over the wall" to implementers, which is why implementers get away with messing with it.
<idpf> doesn't really care about implementation or it wouldn't be looking the other way at what is going on.
That is not how true standards are maintained.

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

All that makes it a *specification* not a standard.
There is a difference.

There are dozens of international standard-setting bodies (ISO, ECMA, etc); epub has been certified by none and has been submitted to none. It builds on true standards like HTML and XML but it is not itself a product standard.
More, true standards come with trademarks and certification penalties and enforcement power behind them.

Okay then. If there are no true standards in the e-book world, then I personally will go with ePub as what I consider the best of the currently available and in-use specified options*, for the reasons previously stated. Especially since they and the former OEB seem to be the only ones to have bothered to lay the cards out on the table for people to see and work with openly.

* Even though it could seriously use some work in the form of an accompanying dictionary specification proposal and one for interoperable annotations, not to mention more advanced formatting/layout and better metadata, rather than this weird hyperlinking ad-inclusion whatever that EPUB3 is apparently chock-full of.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by emellaich

I am reasonably comfortable with Amazon and buy many books from them. However, to set the record straight for some of the newer folks, in the ebook world: amazon has already abandoned one ebook format . They used to be in the market with a format before Mobi. Then they closed down their ebook store, and took a hiatus for a while.

Anyone who bought one of these original Amazon ebooks, would have to rebuy it in Kindle format today.

Which is why one should download, strip DRM and backup the ebooks offline. Nothing I've purchased in the last couple of years lives exclusively on the web. If Amazon drops the AZW/MOBI format, I've lost nothing.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by wallcraft

If (when?) Amazon adds KF8 support to K4PC and K4MAC, and when Calibre has KF8 to ePub conversion, there will be even less reason to buy an ePub - just buy from Amazon and download the KF8 via a K4 app.

I'm assuming that even with KF8 you'd have to strip the DRM first. Am I correct?

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Ken Maltby

Unless, Amazon tightens its DRM and gains control of the supply of manuscripts through
exclusive contracts. That is more of a threat to publishers and authors, in the long run, than to us consumers, but it would not bode well for us either.

Exactly right about it not boding well for us consumers, which is why i avoid buying from Amazon. I want to help keep its competitors alive so there is some competition.

Have some karma.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

And where is that any different than Sony and their LRF format?

When Sony dropped its LRF support, it made all your purchases reavailable in the newer ePub format. Sony didn't simply close down LRF. In addition, it updated firmware for its readers, certainly at least for the then last generation 505 and newer models, I'm not sure about the original 500. I was able to redownload all of the books in my Sony library as ePubs without a problem.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by emellaich

Bottom line, I doubt very much that we will be using ePub/mobi 20 years from now.


I don't care if you use Sony, Apple, Amazon, or Barnes and Noble; the odds are that some (most? all?)of us will wake up one day to discover we own a bunch of books in an obsolete format.

I already did that, broke out in a cold sweat when I realized they were all made out of paper.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Synamon

Removing DRM isn't trivial and is beyond the scope of what most people purchasing books want to mess with. If you are able to strip DRM, then converting formats is not a big deal.

Absolutely correct (so have some karma). This is the underlying problem with discussions here on MR. The assumption is that because you can and are comfortable stripping DRM and converting among formats, then everyone else should be as well. The reality is that most ebook device and book buyers simply want to download and read; they are not interested in or capable of DRM stripping and converting, no matter how easy Alf and Calibre make it.

The other erroneous assumption made here in the MR forums is that we are the biggest and most important buyers of ebooks and that what we do and say is the norm. I think we are an active community but far from representative of the community of ebookers at large. Consequently, we need to be careful when we impose/assume our standards and capabilities onto the ebook world at large. The too often repetition of the assumption/belief can make us blind to the ebook world at large.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by carld

As far as I know no-one has studied it, but I'd bet that Amazon's selection is better than all the ePub sellers put together (counting only those who have interoperable DRM).

Excluding the exclusive contract ebooks, a recent phenomenon, any ebook available at Amazon is also available at most other ebookstores. I suspect that there are some self-published ebooks, especially of public domain manuscripts (which make up the 212 offerings of Moby Dick), that can be found in one store but not another, but Amazon's reach is dominant only in the United States and few authors and publishers are willing to sacrifice all the world that is not the United States. In addition, even if Barnes & Noble is the smaller market share store, it still commands 20% or more of the U.S. ebook marketplace, which is too significant for publishers and most authors to ignore.

My point is that Amazon's ebook offerings are readily matched by the offerings found at other ebookstores.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by emellaich

Bottom line, I doubt very much that we will be using ePub/mobi 20 years from now.

. . .

I don't care if you use Sony, Apple, Amazon, or Barnes and Noble; the odds are that some (most? all?)of us will wake up one day to discover we own a bunch of books in an obsolete format.

Basically, you are saying that the only sure future-proof way to buy a book is in print, just as it has been for 500 years -- a proven track record!

[tompe]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Amazon's reach is dominant only in the United States and few authors and publishers are willing to sacrifice all the world that is not the United States. In addition, even if Barnes & Noble is the smaller market share store, it still commands 20% or more of the U.S. ebook marketplace, which is too significant for publishers and most authors to ignore.

Well, in some non-English speaking countries they are also dominant for English books. I have actually not found any other place to buy most of the the ebooks I want to read. Some books I have found at Angry Robots and bought.