Alternative to DR1000 butchery for a Power Switch

[Kent Walters]

Myself, I do find the device useful; it just has some annoying issues, including reliability, that I believe can be improved--and no, I can't design (or at least build) a better one, but I can improve the one I have. To me, this seems no different from making an 'improvement' on a new car (new stereo, wheels, or whatever) to make your goods more suitable to your needs or desires. If you like it the way it is, you shouldn't change it. Follow your bliss...

Kent Walters

[spaetz]

Originally Posted by Kent Walters

I say again, the cause is irrelevant. Whether it's a bug or hardware, the DR will not hold a charge, and the cap sense switches must, by their design, be a contributing factor, and whether they are the main factor or not means squat.

Let me disagree. I would also be happier if there were a mechanical on/off switch, but the amount of power usage does make a difference. If it contributes only 1% of the current power drain when off then I can live with that quite easily. If it is the only reason that the clock has to be kept powered, then the sin of using one makes the designers deserve eternal hell.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Kent Walters

why is it so hard for you to understand what I’m actually saying?

Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that someone can understand exactly what you're saying, but disagree with it.

[Kent Walters]

spaetz, Shaggy,

I’m not sure what it is that you disagree with; a lithium-ion-polymer battery is capable of holding a full (90%+) charge for well over 6 months. After fully charging my DR, it will not power-up after 3-4 days of being turned ‘off’. Whatever the causes the drain, the drain is significant, causing not only an annoying nuisance, but seriously shortening the life of the battery (estimated to be over 700 recharge cycles), and this is on a device designed to have the battery factory replaced.

If your disagreement is somehow related to what percentage of battery drain while ‘off’ is caused by the cap sense switches, I say again, for the nth time, that that is irrelevant. The relevant fact is that the battery discharges so quickly while being powered ‘off,’ whatever the Major cause of the drain is. Also relevant is the fact that iRex designed the DR to use power while ‘off,’ unlike, for example, the iPod, or any other battery powered device that I know of. I think that anyone who bought an expensive rechargeable flashlight that would not hold a usable charge for three or four days of non-use would believe they had bought defective merchandise, and would not be appeased by the manufacturer’s response, “That’s a known issue; we’re working on it.”

These issues have nothing to do with the fact that eInk is an emerging technology; in fact, they have nothing to do with eInk at all--battery powered devices have been with us since the 19th century, and cap sense since 1922 (the theremin).

As I said, I’m not sure what it is that you disagree with:

I don’t believe that any battery powered device should drain power while ‘off;’ if you disagree with that, let me know, and please explain why.

A mechanical switch on the DR’s battery would reduce power drain while ‘off’ (no matter what causes it) by about 99%; if you disagree with that, let me know, and please explain why.

I don’t believe that any device should be sold with switches or buttons that operate inconsistantly and unreliably; if you disagree with that, let me know, and please explain why.

I do believe that iRex has, quite simply, made some bad design choices; if you disagree with that, let me know, and please explain why.

If your disagreements are based on something else, let me know, and please be specific.

BTW: As to the cap sense circuitry while powered ‘off,’ it is not just that the clock must be kept running; the capacitive field for the button, or buttons, must be generated, requiring constant power. My mention elsewhere of the cap sense clock was in reference to a possible contributing factor in the erratic behavior of the buttons while in use, not while ‘off,’ and, if that’s the case (and I have no idea), I can’t really ‘fault’ iRex for--it would simply be a part of a necessary design compromise.

My major complaint about the DR’s cap sense switches is that they are erratic and troublesome in use, not that they drain power while the DR is ‘off.’ Primarily, they are (as iRex has implemented them) a pain in the arse to use, secondarily, they are a (major or lesser) contributor to the battery drain while ‘off’ issue.

If the buttons worked well, and the DR held a charge, these issues would not concern me. That these flaws could have been so easily eliminated before the DR was put into production annoys me. My EZReader, which I praise on other MR threads, contains design elements that I would have done differently, however, it functions reliably, consistently, as advertised and as I expect it to, which is, I think, the most a consumer could hope for--I have no complaints about it, I enjoy using it, and recommend it to others. If I could leave my fully charged DR unattended for a week, and then be able to use it, I wouldn’t care if it had discharged slightly; I would still be able to use it--and I would certainly use it more often (getting my money’s worth) if it were more reliable.

As it is, when I go to use my DR, I let out a sigh, and wonder what problems I’ll encounter this time.

Kent Walters

Edit: added:

Originally Posted by spaetz

... If it is the only reason that the clock has to be kept powered, then the sin of using one makes the designers deserve eternal hell.

I doubt that any of this was the fault of the engineers; more likely corporate bean-counters or execs pushing for bottom lines or deadlines--but then, I'm partial to engineers.

KW

[myprecious]

I haven't used my dr for almost two weeks now - I've just checked the battery -56%.
Edit: forgot to add that the battery wasn't fully chardged 2 weeks ago

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Kent Walters

Also relevant is the fact that iRex designed the DR to use power while ‘off,’ unlike, for example, the iPod, or any other battery powered device that I know of.

Every PDA I've ever seen will go into "flight mode" (aka stand-by), and does not actually get turned off. The only way to completely power off a Palm, for example, is to remove the battery.

Many smartphones, as well, go into a stand-by mode when you turn them "off" via normal methods. Usually there is a menu you have to access that gives you additional options, including a true power off.

FYI, from what I can tell, iPods default to go into a "sleep" mode instead of turning off if you just touch the button. The iPod touch even calls it a "Sleep/Wake" button, not a "Power" button.

Lots of small battery devices drain power while "off". Some of them have the ability for a true power off, but default to a stand-by mode. Others can't be turned off at all without removing the battery.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by myprecious

I haven't used my dr for almost two weeks now - I've just checked the battery -56%.

Yes. I suspect Kent is seeing symptoms of a software bug that is causing his excessive power drain.

[Kent Walters]

Shaggy,

Yes, you are right, I had forgotten about my Palm m515; it had drained during a four day weekend, and didn’t even have the courtesy of saving my notes and sketches, which I lost, and that cost me time and money. That was the last time I used it, and I will never buy Palm again. I don’t care for the option of removing the battery for a full off, but that is better than no option at all, as with the DR, and as you note, cell phones do provide an option.

As for the iPods, both my first generation and video (5th gen?) models had mechanical ‘click’ buttons in the center of the wheel, and a ‘lock’ (1st gen) or ‘hold’ (5th gen) slide switch to prevent accidents. And yes, both did fully power off. I can’t address the iPod touch, as I no longer have a need for an MP3 player. I would be surprised, though, to find out that Apple had not equipped it similarly, especially with a non-replaceable battery, but Apple, too, has made some dumb decisions. (I have been buying Apple since before the IPO; my avatar here is clipped from something I did on my Lisa/Mac XL. Honest, Apple has made some DUMB decisions, but they do good work...)

To return to the DR, I did, for the first time since upgrading to 1.7, unplug mine (fully charged) at about 11:00 AM last Saturday. At about 7:00 PM tonight (Tuesday) I turned it on, and, according to the battery indicator (and I have not had the problems with that that others have reported) it was still fully charged, which I suppose makes the point of this thread moot--at least for anyone staying with 1.7.

I am having the problems with 1.7 that are mentioned on the iRex thread ‘1.7 bugs,’ and another problem (with PDFs, and that’s serious, for me) not mentioned there (yet), which I’m investigating. I, as you mentioned somewhere, am not sure about going back to 1.6; that is, I’m not sure which can of worms I prefer. I’m leaning toward staying with 1.7, for the power... Dammit, Shaggy, I would love this thing if it weren’t driving me nuts.

You seem have more faith in iRex to deliver solutions than I have, but for me it has been a loss of faith. iRex needs to borrow a page from Linus Torvold’s book, and holler, “Stop!” Then quit adding frills to the OS and focus on making it stable; I’d rather they skip a bug-ridden 1.8 and 1.9 and deliver a stable 2.0. Wouldn’t it be nice...

And, Oh, BTW--Good news! Somewhere else I mentioned that I had put an aluminum doubler behind my DR (to stiffen it up, so as to avoid Grimulkin’s grief--mostly so I could stop worrying) and I have since noticed that I don’t have nearly the problems with eratic cap sense switch behavior that I used to; almost none, in fact. (Have I mentioned that I usually have my DR on my lap when I use it--especially at my computer?) The human body lives inside of a capacitive field, and this seems to provide effective shielding--who’s the happy boy?

So, Shaggy, you were right. As a hardware guy, there is nothing more that I can do... I only wish I shared your optomism about iRex fixing things.

I do recommend the USB extension cord and doubler, both for the DR’s sake and usability.

Kent Walters

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Kent Walters

To return to the DR, I did, for the first time since upgrading to 1.7, unplug mine (fully charged) at about 11:00 AM last Saturday. At about 7:00 PM tonight (Tuesday) I turned it on, and, according to the battery indicator (and I have not had the problems with that that others have reported) it was still fully charged, which I suppose makes the point of this thread moot--at least for anyone staying with 1.7.

I am having the problems with 1.7 that are mentioned on the iRex thread ‘1.7 bugs,’ and another problem (with PDFs, and that’s serious, for me) not mentioned there (yet), which I’m investigating. I, as you mentioned somewhere, am not sure about going back to 1.6; that is, I’m not sure which can of worms I prefer. I’m leaning toward staying with 1.7, for the power... Dammit, Shaggy, I would love this thing if it weren’t driving me nuts.

I could be wrong, but as far as I know there were not any changes in the 1.7 firmware that effected power. They added the tab and "fixed some minor bugs". It's possible that some of those bugs were related to a power drain, but I'm not certain. I'm actually interested in if you're seeing a definite improvement to the power drain with 1.7. That's good information to know.

[Kent Walters]

Shaggy, All,

No, I don’t know, either; as I’ve said elsewhere, I had been leaving the DR plugged in whenever possible, and have been doing that since just after I bought it in February; periodic efforts otherwise proved futile, for whatever reasons. In 1.6 I was still having trouble with it not being charged after a night on the charger (a bug, I know--if it were hardware, I don’t think the DR would work at all). Anyway, tonight at 7:00 PM (24 hours later) The DR’s power button did not respond (shutdown bug?), so I plugged it in to power up. It showed 84% charge, so at least the power drain while off issue seems to be gone, or at least reduced to a more reasonable (to me) level.

This, of course brings us back to curbarthedog’s original suggestion in this thread--at least for rousing a comatose DR--and I have another idea to incorporate that, and save wear and tear on the USB socket. I’ll work it out first, but I’m thinking that I might just go ahead and install a switch, anyway.

[EDIT: Removed erroneous information--see below. KW]

‘Nuff fer now,
Kent Walters

[spaetz]

Kent, I am happy that your power management seems to work better. I will receive my DR1000S today, so I am very exited about it (it was "waiting for dispatch" for 4 weeks and when I inquired by email, it shipped a day later :-))

Just for the record and then I'll shut up on the issue (it's just that good power management is very important to me. I love my Sony PR505 for its great power usage):

- I agree that devices should have the option to be completely turned off (I might know that I won't be using it for a few weeks), in that sense I agree that capacitative buttons are not optimal.
- If power managment is done right, it's fine if the device doesn't really power off completely (my N800 lives in standby mode and with WLAN on for a week). My PR505 hibernates and doesn't need to shut down (I know that hibernation implies complete poweroff) for weeks. It starts up within 3 seconds when using the (mechanical) power on switch.

The only thing that we seemed to disagree is really a minor issue:
- The amount of drain by the capacitive buttons matters. If they really are driven by a separate coprocessor and the main CPU can be shut down. And if they really don't use much energy while in standby... then the culprit lies somewhere else... and that is where the focus on fixing things should go. I don't mind capacitive buttons if they allowed for 4 weeks of stand-by (given no other software and hardware power draining issues).
- However if those buttons are causing 80% of the power drain (as you firmware upgrade seems to imply that they are not to blame for all the power drain), then they are extremly stupid and dumb.

So to sum it up (before really shutting up): Yes, I would have preferred a mechanical on/off switch by far. But unless we know how much power those buttons really drain, we can't put all the blame on them.

back to waiting for the UPS car.... :-)

spaetz

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Kent Walters

BTW: There is another issue about batteries that has been nagging at me, just because there seems to be some confusion about and between Lithium-Ion and Lithium-Ion-Ploymer batteries, at least between iLiad and DR users, that I think should be clarified; the polymer battery can be safely topped-off, that is, you can charge it when it is, say, 30 or 75%, without affecting future charging or lifetime. Topping-off the non-poly lithium-ion will reduce it’s future charge capacity and lifetime--that’s why I said somewhere that iRex made the best choice for the DR’s battery; because it needed to be charged so often. Just would like to clear that up, for anyone waiting for their DR to shut-down before they charge it. (I think I saw the confusionon iRex’s Battery life thread, where the advice for one is given for the other--and its pretty much apples and oranges.)

Can you point me to references for that information? The data that I've seen doesn't differentiate between Lithium-Ion and Lithium-Ion-Polymer batteries, and recommends topping off for Lithium-Ion in general.

The one issue I've seen mentioned is that if you only top off, then after awhile the battery meter may lose it's calibration. A full discharge is recommended every once in awhile in order to recalibrate the meter, but topping off is the recommended procedure in regards to preserving battery life.

If that information is wrong, I'd like to know.

[Kent Walters]

spaetz,

I don’t think that we really disagree; if the DR worked as I believe an owner could reasonably expect, I wouldn’t have given the matter of it not fully turning off a second thought. As it is, by design (owing to the need to power the cap sense circuitry to turn the DR on), and as originally shipped, the user had no way to prevent an enormous power loss while the DR was turned ‘off.’ To me, it matters little what the cause was--iRex knew that it was like that when they decided to put the DR on the market, and they shipped it anyway. A simple power switch at the battery would have reduced power loss while ‘off’ to the battery’s own self-discharging level, no matter what caused the loss.

As for the cap sense switches themselves (aside from the need for power while ‘off’), my objection--and it is my primary objection--is to their quirky behavior; they have too often been distracting me from the work I was trying to do--which has, along with the battery issues, caused me to not use the DR at times when it could have been benificial, and those times were a big part of my decision to buy. BTW: I would bet that the cap sense circuitry includes its own micoprocesser; for example, Atmel’s QTouch and Cyrex’s CapSense lines are specialized for capacitive sensing (of all kinds, not just pushbuttons), and doing it with the DR’s processor would add an unbearable (I think, at least in terms of the user experience) load. If the circuitry were better tuned to handle environmental varibles, I’d be quite happy with the choice. With the circuitry as it is, I’d prefer standard switches, thanks.

Again, I don’t think it was engineering that made the, shall we say, bad choices. I don’t believe the software guys pushed to have a ‘not ready’ version of Tabs included in 1.7; more likely they begged to get it finished first. The same with hardware; these choices are usually made higher up, and commonly are driven by the need to meet deadlines set by people who demand results, regardless of anything. It might be bean-counters--investors maybe--but there’s no telling... The sad thing is that these kinds of choices have ruined many good companies and careers.

I really hope iRex gets it right on the DR800, or they’ll go down the tubes.

Shaggy,

Well over a year ago, I was looking for charger design info for non-lithium based batteries, and happened on an article or white paper that considered the pros and cons of poly vs. non-poly lithium ion batteries. That article stated that while the memory issue was not as significant as with non lithium rechargable types of batterys, the poly battery was superior. I made the note in my head and continued looking for what I wanted to know. Later, after I had bought my EZReader, I saw this in the Astek manual (page 6) (it is the same in the Hanlin version):

* The battery should be charged at least twelve hours when firstly use. It's better to recharge it after its power completely exhausted. Please do the above-mentioned process in the first three times use. [Italics mine; the grammer is original, not mine.]

I took this to refer to a memory issue with the lithium-ion battery, and accepted it as a confirmation of what I had read earlier. (That was when I decided that iRex had made the right choice on the DR’s battery.) Your question caused me to look for the info, and I cannot find it (I don’t remember where it was, or even if it was online). In fact, I could not find any pro/con comparison, regarding the two types, at all (I did find some very outdated info on the poly batteries, some of it published--or at least dated--this year). Bad information abounds, but I try to not spread it around, or add to the confusion; I will edit my post above, and thank you.

That comment was aimed at the battery itself, not the DR’s soft/firm ware. The battery meter seems to have a memory effect of its own, and now I’m wondering if the DR had been rushing me to shut down because it only thought it was running out of battery. Oh, my...

And... at 11:00 AM saturday the DR showed 72% charge (after one week), and I have ended the test.

That’s enough for now; I’m tired.

Kent Walters

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Kent Walters

Well over a year ago, I was looking for charger design info for non-lithium based batteries, and happened on an article or white paper that considered the pros and cons of poly vs. non-poly lithium ion batteries. That article stated that while the memory issue was not as significant as with non lithium rechargable types of batterys, the poly battery was superior.

My understanding, based on several sources, is that Lithium-Ion batteries do not have a memory effect.

* The battery should be charged at least twelve hours when firstly use. It's better to recharge it after its power completely exhausted. Please do the above-mentioned process in the first three times use. [Italics mine; the grammer is original, not mine.]

I think that's referring to the initial "break in" period only. iRex says basically the same thing, except their recommendation is 5 cycles instead of 3. The reason for the full charge/discharge during initial use is to calibrate the battery meter. It's not because of a memory effect with the battery. Once the initial calibration is complete, you should be able to top off (see the caveat below).

That comment was aimed at the battery itself, not the DR’s soft/firm ware. The battery meter seems to have a memory effect of its own, and now I’m wondering if the DR had been rushing me to shut down because it only thought it was running out of battery. Oh, my...

Yes, this is a known problem with Lithium-Ion batteries. Topping off is better for the battery. However, if you do it too much then the meter itself can start to lose calibration. Most places recommend that once every 30 charges, you do a full discharge/recharge. That will bring the meter back into calibration with the battery.

FYI, the software battery meter was not written by iRex. It comes from their third party battery supplier. My point is not to excuse iRex, but to point out that it's a common problem with battery meters.

[Kent Walters]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

My understanding, based on several sources, is that Lithium-Ion batteries do not have a memory effect.

That was my understanding, too, which is why the info from the paper I had read stuck in my head. The Hanlin manual could have been clearer, but, as I read it, it seemed to support the other paper’s statement. I think what we really need is better (or more) info from the battery manufacturers.

Originally Posted by Shaggy

... My point is not to excuse iRex, but to point out that it's a common problem with battery meters.

I didn’t mean to ding iRex; “smart batteries” aren’t really very smart; that they usually work pretty much as they are supposed to is the state of the art: “In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King.”

If, however, the DR will shut down because it ‘thinks’ the battery is too low (because of a ‘stuck guage’), then that is something that should be addressed. I do not have any idea if that is the case, but it could be, and bears looking into, IMHO. This is just something I wonder about, and can't consider a serious problem.

Ta,

Kent Walters