Dilemma

[Lexicon]

I'd go for option 2, as far as I'm concerned if I buy a book I'm actually buying a license to read the words inside. As long as I have paid for the right to read something I have no qualms about seeking out those same words in another form.

Regarding option 3; I wouldn't worry too much about the legalities of scanning the books you own, as long as you don't distribute the eBook.

Firstly there is almost no chance that anybody would find out you were scanning your own books. Secondly even if publishers knew for a fact that you were doing so they would not prosecute - it would be a public relations nightmare.

Prosecuting people for unauthorised sharing is one thing, at least some of the public would see such proceedings as being just. Prosecuting for format shifting when one has paid to access the content is something else, the vast majority of the public would consider that an unfair abuse of power by the publisher.

[astra]

Originally Posted by Lexicon

Regarding option 3; I wouldn't worry too much about the legalities of scanning the books you own, as long as you don't distribute the eBook.

Firstly there is almost no chance that anybody would find out you were scanning your own books. Secondly even if publishers knew for a fact that you were doing so they would not prosecute - it would be a public relations nightmare.

Prosecuting people for unauthorised sharing is one thing, at least some of the public would see such proceedings as being just. Prosecuting for format shifting when one has paid to access the content is something else, the vast majority of the public would consider that an unfair abuse of power by the publisher.

I agree.
The reason why I pointed out that it is illegal was to show that there is no difference between option 2 and 3 - both illegal.

[Penforhire]

Now I'm wondering what Gene Wolfe would do...

[Barcey]

You can always write a letter to Tor and advise them why they aren't getting your money. It probably won't change anything but it can be very therapeutic to vent.

[Liviu_5]

There is another option - buy the books used and again Tor does not get any of your money.

[HappyMartin]

It is a little embarrassing to admit but I had never heard of torrents or the darknet before participating on this forum. I tried to find a few books to see what all the fuss was about and ended up in a strange part of the net where free software was being offered as well as some rather curious, I hope they were exaggerating, sexual activities. Never found any books. You obviously need to be a lot smarter than me to find all this pirated books.

If I cannot find the book legally then I simply find something else to read. Perhaps that is my loss but as a person in business I think that if I refuse to supply a need then it is my loss. I longer read p books at all.

[gwynevans]

While the letter of the law may differ (IANAL), it doesn't seem to me that downloading & using, on your own reader, an ebook version of an pbook that you own is any different from using the pbook itself.

[astra]

Originally Posted by HappyMartin

It is a little embarrassing to admit but I had never heard of torrents or the darknet before participating on this forum. I tried to find a few books to see what all the fuss was about and ended up in a strange part of the net where free software was being offered as well as some rather curious, I hope they were exaggerating, sexual activities. Never found any books. You obviously need to be a lot smarter than me to find all this pirated books.

If I cannot find the book legally then I simply find something else to read. Perhaps that is my loss but as a person in business I think that if I refuse to supply a need then it is my loss. I longer read p books at all.

It is deffinitely not websites and no torrents for me

[alexxxm]

I'm a bit disappointed to see that this poll is clearly missing a possible answer, an answer that I would choose at once ...

"Download the ebook from darknet" and that's all.

There, I admit it: I downloaded ebooks from darknet (mostly from IRC channels) since my day-1 with ebook devices, with my brand new Rocket.
And with my new Sony Reader I'm keeping on.

Background info: me and my wife own ~ 3000 pbooks, and both of us keep on considering them having much more value in themselves than ebooks - I dont want to stray on a different topic, but we are book feticists, and for us the substance of the book will never be replaced by any digital medium.

However.

Life being short as it is, it's always hard to find good books (and music, and movies...) worth the time you will invest on them.
For me, downloading books from IRC is exactly the same that downloading an mp3 from the net: it saves me the stress of avoiding a big amount of junk, and allows me to find a few precious gems - which I'm then more than happy to buy as CD.
I happen to like a lot science fiction, which - also if I find it a genre with the same dignity as other literary fields - is more filled with junk than the average. All the authors I liked in ebook format I immediately bought in hardcover, from Gibson to Sterling, from Simak to Arkady&Boris Strugatsky ...

Is this stealing? I completely agree.
As I agree to the fact that I happened in my life to (taken from an older post) a) exceed the speed limit while driving, b) Lend someone a tape/dvd or a tv program, c) making a mix CD form your favourite album tracks ... (let me add d) smoking a joint).

Whenever I find an author I like to read I'm more than happy to pay for its creative process, buying the p-book, although I'd prefer to pay him directly - nowadays the digital medium allows you to find new ways to directly relate the artist and his fanbase, e.g. the Radiohead: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7082627.stm .

I doubt the Walkman revolution would have happened without everybody being able to tape a copy of a friend's LP.
I doubt there is more than 1% of mp3 portable players storing just songs legally downloaded.
I doubt also you would have a VCR in every house if people used it just to watch their sons birthday recorded, and not to record a movie from TV.

Finally, I believe that ebook devices will never really break through until people will realize that books can be downloaded as easily as songs and TV shows.
And it will be to the people downloading them to decide if to pay the author what they deserve - as I do.


Alessandro

[jasonkchapman]

Originally Posted by alexxxm

All the authors I liked in ebook format I immediately bought in hardcover, from Gibson to Sterling, from Simak to Arkady&Boris Strugatsky ...

The problem with this is that it only works right now, while e-books are a tiny part of the market and p-books dominate. What happens in the future, when e-books dominate? What happens currently when the author's books are only available as e-books and there are no p-books?

I think that's one of the reasons that there is so much rancor around the subject. There are "right now" solutions bumping up against "industry future" needs and the other way around. If everyone agreed with and followed your example, it would guarantee p-book dominance for a long time to come, and would likely lead to publishers moving toward more complex paper protection schemes like the "magic dots" used for currency. It would doom e-books to little more than a promotional scheme for p-books.

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by jasonkchapman

The problem with this is that it only works right now, while e-books are a tiny part of the market and p-books dominate. What happens in the future, when e-books dominate? What happens currently when the author's books are only available as e-books and there are no p-books?

In which future? The one with the personal flying cars ?

I still do not understand why it is a given that because say music is going digital, and movies are going digital, books will go the same way? Music and movies were digital before the mp3's and avi's and the like, they just were cd's and dvd's so the transition was natural.

I just do not see books going all digital in the foreseeable future for many reasons. There will be more e-books, sure, they may increase in market share, sure, though even there I am curious if they will get to 10% in the next 5-10 years.

Right now and for the foreseeable future the big problem for most published authors is obscurity not piracy, while for most people wanting to be authors is "ability to be published" and in both respects e-books and the Net are huge helps if handled properly.

[vivaldirules]

I find it quite curious and depressing that people can so easily justify behaviours that I think should somehow just be clearly wrong to them. Surely if people thought clearly about it they could see it so. I personally could not imagine downloading ebooks (or copying, borrowing, taking, or paying for anything) that was posted by thieves - people who are denying proper payment of the author and publisher for what they are getting. I don't see how pointing out that if you've become particularly fond of ebooks that you'll never read pbooks again is at all relevant. Or that the publisher is rotten. And it seems nutty to me to try to rationalize the act by buying the paperback. Yes, the author and publisher are now getting paid. But you're still using, perhaps encouraging, the theft. I just don't get it.

[alexxxm]

Originally Posted by jasonkchapman

The problem with this is that it only works right now, while e-books are a tiny part of the market and p-books dominate. What happens in the future, when e-books dominate? What happens currently when the author's books are only available as e-books and there are no p-books?

hope I won't be around by then...

Alessandro

[alexxxm]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

I find it quite curious and depressing that people can so easily justify behaviours that I think should somehow just be clearly wrong to them. Surely if people thought clearly about it they could see it so.

Don't be depressed - it is the nature of moral systems.

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

I personally could not imagine downloading ebooks (or copying, borrowing, taking, or paying for anything) that was posted by thieves - people who are denying proper payment of the author and publisher for what they are getting. I don't see how pointing out that if you've become particularly fond of ebooks that you'll never read pbooks again is at all relevant. Or that the publisher is rotten. And it seems nutty to me to try to rationalize the act by buying the paperback. Yes, the author and publisher are now getting paid. But you're still using, perhaps encouraging, the theft. I just don't get it.

Sorry, you've misunderstood me, I guess: I am particularly fond of P-books - not ebooks: for me e-books are simply a way of browsing the literature.
Anyway, I am not rationalizing: I am actually paying for what I think these works are worth - if any. If, as it's often the case, it is junk, I'm not paying, nor I'm asking the author to pay ME for the time I lost reading it ;-)
If I buy a pack of eggs at the supermarket and find they're rotten, I can return them ... try it with a book! Now, the digital system finally allows me to do the same with ebooks.

Anyway, as I told I am perfectly aware that, under most current laws, this is stealing. But, <FOR ME>, ethically it isnt so.


Alessandro

[jasonkchapman]

Originally Posted by Liviu_5

In which future? The one with the personal flying cars ?

Yes, that's the one I meant. And don't leave out cities on the moon.

Originally Posted by Liviu_5

I still do not understand why it is a given that because say music is going digital, and movies are going digital, books will go the same way? Music and movies were digital before the mp3's and avi's and the like, they just were cd's and dvd's so the transition was natural.

Either the industry moves forward or it doesn't. Typesetting and pre-press are already digital, too. Granted it's not the end product, but it still starts out there.

Here's the thing. Much of the discussion on the numerous copyright- and DRM-related threads has revolved around the ethics and morality of copyright infringement of various degrees. Much of it has included an array of legitimate explanations, justifications, and rationalizations that end up with something along the lines of "I buy a p-book (the same one, the author's next, etc.) so it's all good."

While some participants are discussing how an all-e-book industry could actually work for consumers, creators, and publishers, others are discussing the status quo. Frankly, it's all beginning to convince me to, after almost ten years, dump the entire e-book concept and campaign for paper until the end of civilization.

One of the marvelous things about e-books is that they open up avenues to writers whose work, for one reason or another, just doesn't fit the publishing industry's cherished formula for acquisition. In paper, the alternative is small presses, but the small press business is almost impossible to do profitably. The costs are overwhelming. That leaves e-publishing, which promises to give a great big megaphone to voices that are usually drowned out by the mega-media-marketing campaigns of major houses.

If e-books are not the future, then they are nothing more than a sales gimmick for p-books. If that's true, and the market sets the value now at zero, then another avenue falls to the major publishers, because they'll be the only ones who can afford to take the loss as part of a marketing strategy.