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Old 06-15-2010, 03:37 AM   #16
Maggie Leung
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Originally Posted by m-reader View Post
I think there's a misconception here about people liking/disliking Apple. It's not as black and white really. I, for example, am quite fond of Apple gear. My only and crucial problem with them is that they are controlling a bit too much and they are getting greedy beyond what's healthy for consumers.
Two points I would like to make about what's wrong with Apple today:
1. Controlling and censoring app market with a 100% power to decide what's good for us. I am sure they have the best of intentions, but for crying out loud people, have we not learned anything from our history? Censorship leads to totalitarianism - and that can't be good for us!
2. Purposefully designing a product in such way as to make a killing on selling accessories (no USB?).

Anything that Apple does in terms of its appealing hardware and product packaging is for me not sufficient to let the first point there slip by. The accessories business is simply mean (bend over customers!), but that's not as bad.
Are people who do buy into Apple's philosophy stupid? No, of course not!
Are people right to be concerned by what Apple is doing and voice their concerns? Of course they are!
The irony is that Apple haters demand choice, but they don't like it when consumers make choices that differ from theirs. At that point, the people-bashing starts. (That's opposed to people with well-reasoned arguments for or against Apple and its devices.)

Personally, I respect people who make solid arguments (even when I disagree). Those who people-bash appear to lack enough reasoning to overcome their emotions. With these sorts of threads, they come out of the woodwork.
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Old 06-15-2010, 03:52 AM   #17
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That's the problem with Apple fans. Even now, far too many people hold the attitude that Microsoft is evil, but Apple is your friend. Sorry, but that's bull. Apple is every bit as 'evil' and monopolising as Microsoft ever was. The difference is purely in the fact that Microsoft came under heavy scrutiny (particularly in the EU) because having 90% market share in OS means they had a giant target on their backs.

In the last few years, in particular, I actually feel like Microsoft is the lesser of two evils. Although, I suppose I should give Steve Jobs credit for having the guts to screw us right to our faces, rather than behind the back. So, um, kudos for that. By the way, in the awesome irony that is life, I'm currently writing this on my gorgeous 20" iMac...
Indeed, Microsoft and Apple are two faces of the same evil but at least Microsoft is bumbling and incompetent which is slightly endearing. Apple, on the other hand, is charming, capable and friendly but I always find myself wondering what they're really thinking under all that and why I feel like deep down inside they loath me just as much as I them.

As others have said, its not the hardware which is a problem, my macbook pro is a wonderful platform for linux. But their attitude to customers, technology, software design, employees, just about anything important really, is evil genius style stuff.
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Old 06-15-2010, 04:44 AM   #18
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Apple...

Tainted by the blood of suicidal Chinese wage slaves, censored so you don't have to think for yourself and overpriced. What more could you ask for?
Tainted by the blood of suicidal Chinese wage slaves... , and you criticize Dan Brown's writing? You swallowed that piece of sensationalist propaganda (just written up to make the reporter rich and famous) like a good little boy. Better have a look at a real factory in China.

But on the other hand. of course, these days the only freedom Apple stands for is the freedom of the users' chains. Well, as long as the users are happy, they have the choice before they decide to buy.

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Old 06-15-2010, 04:54 AM   #19
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Tainted by the blood of suicidal Chinese wage slaves... , and you criticize Dan Brown's writing? You swallowed that piece of sensationalist propaganda (just written up to make the reporter rich and famous) like a good little boy. Better have a look at a real factory in China.

Show me the contrary evidence that says that nobody committed suicide at the Foxconn factory. Show me the contrary evidence that shows the 10+ hour shifts didn't occur. Show me the unions that protect the workers from the bosses. Show me the company that isn't moving its operations to Taiwan and Vietnam now because of all the bad press.

Another vile corporate apologist willing to brush over death and the destruction of people in the name of profit. You make me sick to the stomach.

Oh and don't call me boy, you patronising shit.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:07 AM   #20
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Show me the contrary evidence that says that nobody committed suicide at the Foxconn factory. Show me the contrary evidence that shows the 10+ hour shifts didn't occur. Show me the unions that protect the workers from the bosses. Show me the company that isn't moving its operations to Taiwan and Vietnam now because of all the bad press.
I think what Hans was trying to say there (style notwithstanding) is that Apple isn't the only one using services of Foxconn and the likes.
If we really want to be concerned about the conditions of workers in China, we should stop buying probably about 80% of consumer electronics right now. Anything else is hypocrisy at the worst, and sensationalism as a best case scenario.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:16 AM   #21
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Show me the contrary evidence that says that nobody committed suicide at the Foxconn factory. Show me the contrary evidence that shows the 10+ hour shifts didn't occur. Show me the unions that protect the workers from the bosses. Show me the company that isn't moving its operations to Taiwan and Vietnam now because of all the bad press.

Another vile corporate apologist willing to brush over death and the destruction of people in the name of profit. You make me sick to the stomach.

Oh and don't call me boy, you patronising shit.
They have 40 hour work weeks with overtime a maximum of 60 hours a week. The rate of suicide is actually low. (50 employees of Air France committed suicide in 2 years). It is not an easy environment for young people who come from the countryside, no doubt. A factory cannot be a kindergarten. But in China these days it is extremely easy to find a job at another factory. You see the signs at every factory. The unsatisfied workers would only have to walk about 500m to go to the next gate.

The main mistake Foxconn made was the very large "suicide bonus" that proved too enticing for workers who wanted to help the people back home. Those are the really poor ones, the ones that don't work at a factory like Foxconn, but work at a local invested one.

Of course, you are seeing it like it is. The whole matter won't help Chinese workers, all that will come of it is that many of them will lose their jobs and the poor farmers will have fewer opportunities to improve their lots.

By the way, workers in Taiwan electronics factories make over 1000 USD per month, a move there would definitely not be for the lower cost. My point being, China's workers lot has improved so much in the last 20 years, if you really want to help the workers it must be at a sustainable pace. A giant jump in costs will just force the factories to close and move elsewhere. That would be the greatest loss for the workers.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:19 AM   #22
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I think what Hans was trying to say there (style notwithstanding) is that Apple isn't the only one using services of Foxconn and the likes.
If we really want to be concerned about the conditions of workers in China, we should stop buying probably about 80% of consumer electronics right now. Anything else is hypocrisy at the worst, and sensationalism as a best case scenario.
Of course it's not only Apple, it's also Sony and Dell and Microsoft, but this is a thread discussing that vile company I first mentioned.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:19 AM   #23
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Another vile corporate apologist willing to brush over death and the destruction of people in the name of profit. You make me sick to the stomach.

Oh and don't call me boy, you patronising shit.
You are almost funny.

And with the boy I just returned the favor from a few months back. I felt it appropriate since you talk about something you really have no idea about to someone who has seen it first hand.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:26 AM   #24
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They have 40 hour work weeks with overtime a maximum of 60 hours a week. The rate of suicide is actually low. (50 employees of Air France committed suicide in 2 years). It is not an easy environment for young people who come from the countryside, no doubt. A factory cannot be a kindergarten. But in China these days it is extremely easy to find a job at another factory. You see the signs at every factory. The unsatisfied workers would only have to walk about 500m to go to the next gate.

The main mistake Foxconn made was the very large "suicide bonus" that proved too enticing for workers who wanted to help the people back home. Those are the really poor ones, the ones that don't work at a factory like Foxconn, but work at a local invested one.

Of course, you are seeing it like it is. The whole matter won't help Chinese workers, all that will come of it is that many of them will lose their jobs and the poor farmers will have fewer opportunities to improve their lots.

By the way, workers in Taiwan electronics factories make over 1000 USD per month, a move there would definitely not be for the lower cost. My point being, China's workers lot has improved so much in the last 20 years, if you really want to help the workers it must be at a sustainable pace. A giant jump in costs will just force the factories to close and move elsewhere. That would be the greatest loss for the workers.
Not arguing with you. You lost all rights to civilised debate with me when you called me 'boy'.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:27 AM   #25
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You are almost funny.

And with the boy I just returned the favor from a few months back. I felt it appropriate since you talk about something you really have no idea about to someone who has seen it first hand.

And you are almost a human being.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:29 AM   #26
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And you are almost a human being.
Coming from you, I take that as a great compliment.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:30 AM   #27
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Not arguing with you. You lost all rights to civilised debate with me when you called me 'boy'.
As I said, I just returned the favor. Last time you called me boy.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:31 AM   #28
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I highly recommend Wall Street Journal reporter Leslie Chang's book, "Factory Girls." She offers more than a drive-by take on Chinese factory workers. She also recently wrote a commentary piece in The New York Times, concluding:

"It is important not to interpret the recent spate of worker suicides as protests against factory conditions. In my experience, the greatest pressure on workers comes from interpersonal and emotional concerns rather than conditions inside the factory, which workers tend to take for granted.

The universe of the factory can be a complicated place. Young people living away from home for the first time are learning to deal with co-workers, roommates, and bosses. They are adjusting to a world of material and sexual freedom, fleeting relationships and crushing loneliness. They face demands from families back home who often have little understanding of their new lives. These factors create a stressful environment from which, for a handful of workers, suicide seems the only escape. To boil this desperate act down to a protest against working conditions is to deny a worker’s complexity and humanity."

All that Chang wrote jibes with what I've read and heard over the years about labor in Chinese factories.

Adding link to book:

http://www.amazon.com/Factory-Girls-.../dp/0385520174

Last edited by Maggie Leung; 06-15-2010 at 05:43 AM.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:41 AM   #29
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Exactly, Maggie. These workers come from their homes 100s or even 1000s of miles away to work. Often they are alone and don't know anybody. People in factories tend to group together by home province. If someone does not belong to one of these groups it can be a very lonely place. It represents great opportunities for them, but life isn't easy for many reasons other than the factory environment. Such sensational "journalism" just paints a completely inaccurate picture and, in the end, hurts the workers.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:46 AM   #30
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I didn't read Ulysses, and I didn't see the comic. I also don't know the machine behind the iTunes Store and the ratings and approval stuff etc.
But isn't it basically okay to prevent minors from viewing nudity?
I'm not prude, I like looking at naked people (women, preferrably), but lately it has struck me as rather bold to see boobs and asses all over the place. I turn on the TV (here, in Europe) and between shower-gel commercials featuring naked women in waterfalls I see tabloid-style TV shows where the only topics are celebrities, plastic surgery and what party island to go to to get all the sex you want.
Then when I go outside I see billboards on buildings (i.o.w. HUGE!) advertising "art" and "culture" with paintings such as this one, this one, or this one.

I used to basically ignore this kind of public display of nudity, but having become a dad 2 years ago obviously did something funny with my brain and I look at things with different eyes.

Why is it okay to print huge, gigantic pictures of absurdly deformed naked bodies that are considered art (I consider it just totally disgusting, looking at Schiele's paintings makes me want to hurl)? Just because the guy is famous? Weren't paintings such as these the Hustler/Penthouse mags of the 1800s or whenever the guy lived?

Hey, how about Mapplethorpe? I'd really like to see his self-fisting photos (all aesthetically very pleasing, oooh, the lighting is just so amazing, how it accentuates the rawness of the male body) on display in front of the local museum when I take a stroll along that route with my son.

There's that.

Then again, anyone who's willing to enter a museum that displays stuff like that, or buys a book about Mapplethorpe (the photos are amazing), they should be able to do that without jumping through hoops to get them, or peel off censorship-stickers.
Just let the porno-Ulysses get a rating of 18+ in the app store and tha's it. Who's 18? Maybe anyone who has a creditcard.
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