Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book Formats > ePub

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-28-2010, 03:09 AM   #61
awx
Connoisseur
awx is on a distinguished road
 
Posts: 68
Karma: 56
Join Date: Oct 2009
Device: Sony PRS-650 & PRS-600
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleDe View Post
I am surprised you don't just support H1, H2, H3 for chapter breaks.

Dale
It's a bad fit for XHtml and ePub.
awx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 07:31 AM   #62
Valloric
Created Sigil, FlightCrew
Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Valloric's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,978
Karma: 350515
Join Date: Feb 2008
Device: Sony Reader PRS 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by awx View Post
It's a bad fit for XHtml and ePub.
Please elaborate.
Valloric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 09:51 AM   #63
awx
Connoisseur
awx is on a distinguished road
 
Posts: 68
Karma: 56
Join Date: Oct 2009
Device: Sony PRS-650 & PRS-600
Divs are a good fit for dividing sections of an Xhtml document. Heading tags are a good fit for producing headings.

Last edited by awx; 04-28-2010 at 10:01 AM.
awx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 10:34 AM   #64
DaleDe
Grand Sorcerer
DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DaleDe's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,654
Karma: 5072002
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Grass Valley, CA
Device: EB 1150, EZ Reader, Literati, iPad 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by awx View Post
It's a bad fit for XHtml and ePub.
Not according to the ePUB standard. These are accepted and encouraged methods of formatting and dividing data.
DaleDe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 11:35 AM   #65
Valloric
Created Sigil, FlightCrew
Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Valloric's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,978
Karma: 350515
Join Date: Feb 2008
Device: Sony Reader PRS 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by awx View Post
Divs are a good fit for dividing sections of an Xhtml document. Heading tags are a good fit for producing headings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleDe View Post
Not according to the ePUB standard. These are accepted and encouraged methods of formatting and dividing data.
I think we may have a misunderstanding here. Dale and I are saying that using a heading tag that signifies that the what follows after it is a new chapter is a good idea. All books have some sort of actual heading at the beginning of every chapter: a number, a chapter title, something in a larger, bolder font.

That's what the heading tags should be used for since that's what they were created for.

Even if you further separate chapters with div tags, you will still have such a heading text (in a heading element or not) at the beginning. So why not use that?

But your idea of wrapping every chapter in a special div... I have nothing against that. It adds more semantic information, so I say go for it.
Valloric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 11:56 AM   #66
awx
Connoisseur
awx is on a distinguished road
 
Posts: 68
Karma: 56
Join Date: Oct 2009
Device: Sony PRS-650 & PRS-600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valloric View Post
Dale and I are saying that using a heading tag that signifies that the what follows after it is a new chapter is a good idea.
And that's what I'm saying is a bad idea and not a good fit. It's making assumptions about structure based on presentation. That method might work sometimes, even most of the time, but it's inherently flawed.
awx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 12:10 PM   #67
kovidgoyal
creator of calibre
kovidgoyal ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kovidgoyal ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kovidgoyal ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kovidgoyal ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kovidgoyal ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kovidgoyal ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kovidgoyal ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kovidgoyal ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kovidgoyal ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kovidgoyal ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kovidgoyal ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
kovidgoyal's Avatar
 
Posts: 26,125
Karma: 5381911
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mumbai, India
Device: Various
Quote:
Originally Posted by awx View Post
And that's what I'm saying is a bad idea and not a good fit. It's making assumptions about structure based on presentation. That method might work sometimes, even most of the time, but it's inherently flawed.
Actually heading tags are semantic, not presentational. They don't imply a particular mode of presentation, unlike say the <b> and <i> tags. ANd given that they automatically support levels as opposed to divs I'd argue taht they are more semantic than divs
kovidgoyal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 12:44 PM   #68
awx
Connoisseur
awx is on a distinguished road
 
Posts: 68
Karma: 56
Join Date: Oct 2009
Device: Sony PRS-650 & PRS-600
OK, but they still don't imply chapter breaks.
awx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 02:11 PM   #69
Jellby
frumious Bandersnatch
Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Jellby's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,195
Karma: 4800739
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spaniard in Sweden
Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura
They imply the start of a chapter, or section, or subsection... The problem is there's nothing to imply the end of it (other than the start of the next). It's the same thing with the LaTeX \chapter, \section, etc. Using the <hX> tags when there is no part/chapter/section to start is misusing them.

Wrapping the whole chapter in a <div> can be useful, but in addition to using <h2> (say) for the heading, either inside or outside the <div>.
Jellby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 03:18 PM   #70
awx
Connoisseur
awx is on a distinguished road
 
Posts: 68
Karma: 56
Join Date: Oct 2009
Device: Sony PRS-650 & PRS-600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
They imply the start of a chapter, or section, or subsection... The problem is there's nothing to imply the end of it (other than the start of the next).
Also the absence of them does not preclude a chapter start. They just aren't suitable for this purpose.

I agree that authors should use them at the top of pages where appropriate but that's really up to them.
awx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 03:22 PM   #71
DaleDe
Grand Sorcerer
DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DaleDe's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,654
Karma: 5072002
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Grass Valley, CA
Device: EB 1150, EZ Reader, Literati, iPad 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by awx View Post
Also the absence of them does not preclude a chapter start. They just aren't suitable for this purpose.

I agree that authors should use them at the top of pages where appropriate but that's really up to them.
In 99% of the books I have read they do exactly that. They mark the beginning of a chapter and a chapter start is never presented without them. The ePUB standard expects them and CSS also works well with them. They are not just dressing for the top of the page. They are the structure for the ePUB format.

Dale
DaleDe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 04:11 PM   #72
Valloric
Created Sigil, FlightCrew
Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Valloric ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Valloric's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,978
Karma: 350515
Join Date: Feb 2008
Device: Sony Reader PRS 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
Wrapping the whole chapter in a <div> can be useful, but in addition to using <h2> (say) for the heading, either inside or outside the <div>.
Exactly.
Valloric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 04:13 PM   #73
awx
Connoisseur
awx is on a distinguished road
 
Posts: 68
Karma: 56
Join Date: Oct 2009
Device: Sony PRS-650 & PRS-600
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleDe View Post
The ePUB standard expects them and CSS also works well with them. They are not just dressing for the top of the page. They are the structure for the ePUB format.
I haven't seen anything that agrees with that. There is nothing in the Ncx or Opf files that in any way relates to the h tags.
awx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 06:16 PM   #74
DaleDe
Grand Sorcerer
DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DaleDe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DaleDe's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,654
Karma: 5072002
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Grass Valley, CA
Device: EB 1150, EZ Reader, Literati, iPad 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by awx View Post
I haven't seen anything that agrees with that. There is nothing in the Ncx or Opf files that in any way relates to the h tags.
It is not in those documents because it is assumed knowledged based all the way back to 4.0 HTML Look at: http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html40...l.html#h-7.5.5

where it says that: A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically.

That is pretty clear and it has never changed. You can do what you want, of course, but to say that something is not suitable when it is exactly what it is designed to do, seems like you think you have to redesign the whole thing from scratch.

Dale
DaleDe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 07:56 PM   #75
awx
Connoisseur
awx is on a distinguished road
 
Posts: 68
Karma: 56
Join Date: Oct 2009
Device: Sony PRS-650 & PRS-600
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleDe View Post
where it says that: A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically.
You may want to scroll up just a bit in the document you linked to and read this:
"The DIV and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class attributes, offer a generic mechanism for adding structure to documents."

Followed by:
"Suppose, for example, that we wanted to generate an HTML document based on a database of client information. Since HTML does not include elements that identify objects such as "client", "telephone number", "email address", etc., we use DIV and SPAN to achieve the desired structural and presentational effects."

This is definitely what I'm after.

Last edited by awx; 04-28-2010 at 08:12 PM.
awx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[old-topic]ebook-viewer: Open source, crossplatform viewer for EPUB, LIT, MOBI, etc kovidgoyal Calibre 68 05-30-2011 08:46 PM
any open source ebook reader apps? kennyc Android Developer's Corner 15 12-23-2010 01:38 PM
EPUB generated by ebook-convert does not open gracefully on windows Heritage History Calibre 4 07-08-2010 01:37 PM
OpenInkpot (open source ebook firmware) davidw89 Sony Reader 9 11-15-2008 09:59 AM
Proposal for an open source multi-format ebook authoring tool Jon Noring News 15 09-12-2008 12:17 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:38 PM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.