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Old 04-20-2010, 02:56 PM   #16
WillAdams
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File Sharing (of copyright materials w/o permission) = providing someone else's work, to a person who isn't paying for it, w/o the possibility of recompense to the owner of the copyright

If a person wants to give away their own work, fine, but they shouldn't allow themselves to use technology to take that decision away from others.

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Old 04-20-2010, 04:46 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by WillAdams View Post
File Sharing (of copyright materials w/o permission) = providing someone else's work, to a person who isn't paying for it, w/o the possibility of recompense to the owner of the copyright

If a person wants to give away their own work, fine, but they shouldn't allow themselves to use technology to take that decision away from others.

William
In the event that the author or their inheritors are living, I agree that it is theft of income and do not do it.

A book like "Gone with the Wind" (1936) written by Margaret Munnerlyn Mitchell (November 8, 1900 – August 16, 1949) and still in publication, I also agree - theft of income.

But if there is a book that has not been published in the last 20-30 years. NO, I would now convict anyone of theft in those conditions.

I have had the misfortune of meeting a few (VERY few thankfully) that honestly believe that a person, no mater how old or young, shall go to hell for knowingly stealing anything, even a paperclip. NO forgiveness - HELL.

If I'm wrong then I'm going to hell. It's too late now for me to return those little office thingies that went home in my pocket, pens, thumb tacks, etc.

So I STRONGLY disagree with you that it is ALWAYS wrong.

You may say "So what, Im' still right".

To which I say "Naa, naa, na naaaa naaaaa, the books downloaded were so bad that I deleted them anyway".

And that was my earlier point. If you go looking for "out of print" ebooks on the web you will not offend B&N. It will make their books look better, typos and all.

Heck, if I were to "steal" an ebook it would be "Under the Eagle" by Simon Scarrow. It is only available over seas. If I could buy it I would. But I will not download it for free.

That's just me. I'll condemn no one else.
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Old 04-20-2010, 07:06 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by WillAdams View Post
File Sharing (of copyright materials w/o permission) = providing someone else's work, to a person who isn't paying for it, w/o the possibility of recompense to the owner of the copyright
Not true at all. If it is downloaded there is the possibility of future sales, assuming the product is good enough. Whereas if it is not downloaded there is no possibility of a sale.
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Old 04-21-2010, 10:42 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by WillAdams View Post
File Sharing (of copyright materials w/o permission) = providing someone else's work, to a person who isn't paying for it, w/o the possibility of recompense to the owner of the copyright
Whether or not payment is involved has nothing to do with whether or not it's copyright infringement.
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Old 04-21-2010, 10:44 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by HorridRedDog View Post
In the event that the author or their inheritors are living, I agree that it is theft of income and do not do it.
There's no such thing as "theft of income". If you are shopping for a pBook but decide not to buy it, is that theft of income too? There is no right that guarantees income.

The loss of a potential sale is very different from "theft of income".
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Old 04-21-2010, 11:09 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by HorridRedDog View Post
A book like "Gone with the Wind" (1936) written by Margaret Munnerlyn Mitchell (November 8, 1900 – August 16, 1949) and still in publication, I also agree - theft of income.
In Australia and Canada, Gone with the Wind is PD, and one can download it from PG Australia for free. In fact, Mitchell's heirs sued PG Australia and lost. Here in the US, under the laws in place when she wrote it, it should have been in the PD in 1984, but because of the two copyright extensions, this book won't be PD until 2031, assuming Disney and other corporate IP holders don't again lobby Congress into extending copyright for another lifetime or two. It may be theft of income to you and Mitchell's heirs, but I'm not going to be outraged by someone in the US illegally downloading it from PG Australia.
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Old 04-21-2010, 04:28 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
There's no such thing as "theft of income". If you are shopping for a pBook but decide not to buy it, is that theft of income too? There is no right that guarantees income.

The loss of a potential sale is very different from "theft of income".
I did not mean to have you think that I was an incompetent lawyer. I am not a lawyer, and do not make sweeping statements about what is law.

But when I Google "theft of income" law, I get 643 listings. Maybe not a lot by Googles standards but enough to show that the term is not unknown.

In fact it may be entirely inaccurately used be me and many others. As in "All About Copyrights"

"On the ethical question, the artist is entitled to receive income from the sale of the product. Pirating by making copies of existing music, or making arrangements or other alterations to the music and text, results in the loss of sales and theft of income to the publisher and the artist."

Or the SAA.

"Without a more concerted, diligent effort, infringements will continue to create unrecoverable theft of income for both."

"North Dakota Department of Health
Division of Health Facilities"


"Financial abuse fits into one of two general categories – theft of income or theft of assets."

"Prepared Remarks of Acting Deputy Attorney General Craig Morford"

"This was theft not only of the services of the provider, but also the
intellectual property of the original producers of movies, sporting events,
and other programs. And it was theft of income from ...."


OLX Job search -Wanted Attorney — Washington DC

"Wanted attorney for littigation , involving an estate ( class) . Oil Producing real estate (apparent seizure of control ,theft of income by fraudulent means ) . Assault with injury by hotel employees (multinational luxury chain ) trisodium phosphate , tripotassium phosphate in cereal (detergent / industrial cleaner )"

I am not a lawyer, AND NO NOT WANT TO BE.

Lay people (Adj. (DEF 2): Not of or from a profession) will say that so or so murdered someone. Legally that may be wrong because the law breaks it down to murder in the [blank] degree.

"If you are shopping for a pBook but decide not to buy it, is that theft of income too?"

Sophism.

If you will acquire something by simply taking it, then yes.

If you wish to be pedantic about common usage of words on this site all I can do is to place you on my "ignore list".

Last edited by HorridRedDog; 04-21-2010 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 04-21-2010, 04:41 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by bgalbrecht View Post
In Australia and Canada....

It may be theft of income to you and Mitchell's heirs, but I'm not going to be outraged by someone in the US illegally downloading it from PG Australia.
I wouldn't buy it, or download it (free). I liked the movie, but wouldn't read the book.

Personally I think that the copyright should last for 20 to 40 years. If I was a REAL big author I would probably say a 1,000 years.
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:26 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
There's no such thing as "theft of income".
Sure there is-but it's not what we're talking about here. (Theft of income would be somebody stealing my paycheck.)

An interesting analogy (to what we're actually talking about) is 'theft of service'. That is legally defined although, from what I've read, the definition doesn't quite fit copyright infringement-but it's the closest 'theft' definition I can think of.
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:29 PM   #25
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I doubt B&N specifically chose to put their ad there. They've likely paid into an advertising system that auto generates relevant ads based on the content of the site, and the site you were on uses that service. I would not in any way take that as B&N approving of the site on which you saw the ad.
Assuming B&N disapproves of the site, the presence of their ad on it *does* indicate a lack of oversight on their part of what's being done in their name. Or maybe it's a lack of foresight, e.g. the contract failed to give them any veto power.
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Old 04-21-2010, 10:47 PM   #26
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I doubt B&N specifically chose to put their ad there. ....
I have to agree. I've seen, and heard, badly placed ads before.

I just can see B&N giving an ad agency a fist full of money and saying "Put our ads where the most interest is." OK.
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Old 04-21-2010, 11:12 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by bgalbrecht View Post
In Australia and Canada, Gone with the Wind is PD, and one can download it from PG Australia for free. In fact, Mitchell's heirs sued PG Australia and lost. Here in the US, under the laws in place when she wrote it, it should have been in the PD in 1984, but because of the two copyright extensions, this book won't be PD until 2031, assuming Disney and other corporate IP holders don't again lobby Congress into extending copyright for another lifetime or two. It may be theft of income to you and Mitchell's heirs, but I'm not going to be outraged by someone in the US illegally downloading it from PG Australia.
There was no suit. It was correspondence more like - 'That's what you think? That's nice. Would you like to provide some legal evidence of this under Australian law (note, not American, for you really slow lawyers'.

Then they of course went away, given that the request for evidence is impossible to do.
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Old 04-21-2010, 11:37 PM   #28
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There was no suit. It was correspondence more like - 'That's what you think? That's nice. Would you like to provide some legal evidence of this under Australian law (note, not American, for you really slow lawyers'.

Then they of course went away, given that the request for evidence is impossible to do.
Is this a carryover from another thread?

I feel like I've missed large portions of the conversation that you are referring to.
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:20 AM   #29
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I doubt B&N specifically chose to put their ad there. They've likely paid into an advertising system that auto generates relevant ads based on the content of the site, and the site you were on uses that service. I would not in any way take that as B&N approving of the site on which you saw the ad.
Exactly.
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:37 AM   #30
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Is this a carryover from another thread?

I feel like I've missed large portions of the conversation that you are referring to.
No, it's just additional derailment of the original topic that started with your example of downloading Gone with the Wind being theft of income. Blue Tyson just corrected my statement that Mitchell's heirs sued PG Australia, when what actually happened was that the heirs sent PG Australia a cease and desist letter (possibly the Australian equivalent to DMCA takedown notice, if they have one), and PG Australia told them they had no standing because it was PD in Australia. Since then the Australia parliament folded to the demands of the US and EU and bumped the copyright term from life+50 to life+70. Fortunately, not retroactively, so Gone with the Wind is still PD in Australia, but there won't be any new PD materials in Australia for about 15-17 years, just as there won't be any new PD materials in the US until 2019.

I have no sympathy for any lost income for Margaret Mitchell's heirs. Margaret Mitchell was dead for 29 years when the book's copyright was extended the first time in the US, from 1992 to 2011 (like that would encourage her to produce new works), and then again to 2031. The big IP owners stole 39 years of public domain from us, just so they could make money on less than 1% of all of copyright material.

Getting back on topic, I wouldn't be surprised if the darknet site's advertising was served by a legitimate advertiser, like Google Adwords, and because the page had some keyword like book, Barnes & Noble's ad was served. I agree with Kali Yuga (there's a first time for everything), that "It is ironic, but almost certainly unintentional."
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