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Old 07-23-2007, 10:34 PM   #91
Roy White
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Nate.. hmm.. maybe you are right that there isn't a monetary 'ripoff' going on in the immediatre sense.. (And I apologize deeply, i read my own post and it looks extremely self righteous. Och. My bad. I didn't mean to come across like that...)

But! I suspect very strongly that if there were no ebook available of HP7.. You would, (If you wanted to read it bad enough without waiting for a library version that she got 'paid' for because the library bought it from her,) save your money, its only 20 bucks or so... And buy it. She really does lose sales when people download the book and read it rather than buying it.

I willl concede that if people buy the book, then get a pirated ebook version There is then NO economic loss to her or the publishers. (Laying aside for the moment the criminal action of breaking the law when you download it illegally)

And yes. I have downloaded books illegally from the internet. They are ridiculously easy to find. Just recently I deleted all of them when i realized i had walked the wrong road.

There are books I want badly on my reader and cant get. The Stand is one... Not on Sony Connect... OK then.. I have to live without it on my reader because S. King, who TOTALLY controls his work and has every right to do so, chooses not to sell it as an e-book. (That is if I want to be on the right side of the law....)

No matter how you look at it... It is illegal and if you download books illegally, You ARE a lawbreaker.. That said... You could call me a lawbreaker because I went 85 MPH on my Bike coming home from work the long way this afternoon so I'm not trying to stir up a hornets nest and insult anyone who does illegally download books. (Or speed or cheat on taxes etc. etc. etc...)

Its just an interesting argument to me and if we met and you showed me any books on your reader you may or may not have I would NOT judge you ar thing any worse of you.

We all have to live with our consciences and every one of us has a log in our own eye as we yell at the splinter inj our brothers eye (To quote Christ)

Roy
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:24 AM   #92
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Harm...

Nate,

The problem is this. If there's no monetary damages, there's no 'harm'. You have to be able to show that the author/publisher/whoever has taken damages from the action. And this is where - although the publishers *clearly* don't want it looked at from this point of view - the argument for 'illegality' fails.

It's also almost as if JKR and her publishers are telling 'some' of the market - no thanks, but your money isn't good enough for us. We don't *want* your business. But since it is quite possible for anyone to go to the library, check out the HP books, buy a used OpticBook scanner and create ebooks out of them - and then return the books to the library - JKR and her publishers can't claim they've been harmed.

I'll grant that once a person has done this, there's no physical means of preventing the ebooks from then being given away over the internet or on CDRW discs. But here again, no one has successfully proven that JKR has suffered harm from this.

Just look at how many copies of HP7 were sold in one *DAY! 8.3 *MILLION*. Even at the discount prices some chains were offering, that still racks up to a ton of cash! (I got *my* copy.) Yet here I sit with a copy of HP7 sitting on my PDA. Just as I have the dead tree versions of HP1-6 and the ebook versions. Why? Because I *DO* believe in paying the author. But I *also* prefer reading on my PDA, and soon on my eInk reader. Having done so with Miller and Lee's Korval series - I have TPB, MMPB and some HCs as well as having bought the Embiid versions - but when I couldn't get decent ebook versions for my WinMobile PDA, I created them from 'free' text files I found on Usenet.

And as soon as Baen released them through Webscriptions, I bought the whole set all over again. Why? Because I *want* to encourage authors and publishers to release the books in ebook format.

I'll still keep on transforming those stories I like which are not currently available into personal ebooks, but if I can, I buy them that way. And I let authors know that as soon as they can convince their publishers to release them in ebook format, I'll purchase those copies.

Derek

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Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
Unless someone has a coherent argument to convey, I am going to avoid this discussion.



I do not claim that it is legal. I merely state that JK Rowling is not being harmed.

Economically, an ebook is not equivalent to a paperback book is not equivalent to a hardback book. The dollar amount they are sold for is not the same. I cannot take one in and trade it equal with another. I believe you mean to say that they are functionally equivalent. That is somewhat true, but irrelevant to this discussion. We are discussing the economics of the situation.


@delphidb96
I disagree with your statement of a "right" to download. It is still theft even if you cannot buy it legally. But in this situation, the value of the theft is $0.00. That is the whole point of my argument.

P.S. Are you trying to be ironic or sarcastic? I can't tell.
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:35 AM   #93
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But there's a flaw to your argument...

Roy,

Probably the *most* important reason to create or download 'pirated' ebooks is to punish the publisher for *not* releasing legal versions.

By sitting there and not making a fuss, you are, in essence, telling them that ebook releases don't matter. That it is okay to deprive you of the convenience of the ebook format at their whim. IOW, you're perfectly willing to purchase the hot, new, racy, sports coupe in basic brown with a 3-cylinder 57HP engine, bench seats and a manual rag-top because, hey, that's the only way the manufacturer will sell it to you. Yeah, right.

If the publishers won't adapt to the market, then the customers will move on to the publishers who *do* listen to them. The current publishing houses are very much manufacturing and sales driven, not customer and market-research driven, as far as their fulfillment and distribution methods are concerned.

And they need to get rapped on the knuckles hard enough to make them wake up and listen to their customer base.

You know, there's this constant whining about how no one *reads* any more. Right. Sure they don't. Nothing could be further from the truth. But most of the new readers don't want to have to set up yards and yards of shelving to store their collections. They want to shove it onto a 1" hard drive or an SD card and carry hundreds of books in the palm of their hand or an oversized cargo pocket.

Derek


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Nate.. hmm.. maybe you are right that there isn't a monetary 'ripoff' going on in the immediatre sense.. (And I apologize deeply, i read my own post and it looks extremely self righteous. Och. My bad. I didn't mean to come across like that...)

But! I suspect very strongly that if there were no ebook available of HP7.. You would, (If you wanted to read it bad enough without waiting for a library version that she got 'paid' for because the library bought it from her,) save your money, its only 20 bucks or so... And buy it. She really does lose sales when people download the book and read it rather than buying it.

I willl concede that if people buy the book, then get a pirated ebook version There is then NO economic loss to her or the publishers. (Laying aside for the moment the criminal action of breaking the law when you download it illegally)

And yes. I have downloaded books illegally from the internet. They are ridiculously easy to find. Just recently I deleted all of them when i realized i had walked the wrong road.

There are books I want badly on my reader and cant get. The Stand is one... Not on Sony Connect... OK then.. I have to live without it on my reader because S. King, who TOTALLY controls his work and has every right to do so, chooses not to sell it as an e-book. (That is if I want to be on the right side of the law....)

No matter how you look at it... It is illegal and if you download books illegally, You ARE a lawbreaker.. That said... You could call me a lawbreaker because I went 85 MPH on my Bike coming home from work the long way this afternoon so I'm not trying to stir up a hornets nest and insult anyone who does illegally download books. (Or speed or cheat on taxes etc. etc. etc...)

Its just an interesting argument to me and if we met and you showed me any books on your reader you may or may not have I would NOT judge you ar thing any worse of you.

We all have to live with our consciences and every one of us has a log in our own eye as we yell at the splinter inj our brothers eye (To quote Christ)

Roy
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:42 AM   #94
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Roy,

Your profile says you live in the U.S., so I'm not sure your argument about the illegality of downloading unauthorized ebooks holds, particularly when one has paid for the paper version. As far as I know, this hasn't been tested in court, but the Betamax decision seems more relevant to me than the Grokster decision (not that I'm a lawyer or judge). "Fair Use" is pretty vaguely defined in the U.S. (in contrast to the U.K., for example), but it's quite plausible to apply it here to people who have purchased the paper version but want the ebook version for convenience. Also, I have heard that it is the uploading of unauthorized content, rather than the downloading, which has been criminalized, along with the creation and distribution of tools intended to allow decryption and distribution of unauthorized copies.

I am not promoting any illegal activity. I'm just trying to say that you may have overstated your case here.
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Old 07-24-2007, 11:06 AM   #95
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nekokami... Interesting post... I need to check this out. I have tons of dead trees sitting on my shelves I'd love to have on my reader. Books I've already purchased. (In some cases multiple times becasue my kids lose or tear up my copies...)

If what you say is true, is it 'legal' to download copies of books you have on your shelves? How about books you once bought then loaned out? and didnt get back?
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:35 PM   #96
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I don't know about the ones you loaned out and didn't get back. I would be inclined to say you don't get to count them, just as I think you do get to count books you buy used or are given.

I can't promise it's legal to download copies of books you have, either. As I said, I'm not a lawyer. But it seems to me that it ought to be legal to scan them yourself under "fair use," so it ought to be legal to get a copy that someone else has scanned, if you already own the book in paper. (This is all according to my understanding of U.S. law, and may not apply in other countries.)

Note that I am not saying it's legal to scan and OCR a book and distribute it to the darknet without permission of the author/publisher/copyright holder. So even if it is legal to obtain a digital version, you may be relying on the illegal actions of someone else.

Imagine a hypothetical club which admits members who have purchased paper books, from wherever. Imagine further that this club has a way of verifying exactly which members have purchased which books. Now imagine that each member undertakes to scan and OCR a subset of their own books, and that club members coordinate so they don't duplicate efforts. Now imagine that the club allows members to share their digital copies only with those members who also own the same book in paper. I don't know how a U.S. court would rule on this sort of arrangement. It might matter to the court whether legal digital editions of each book existed. But I think it would be very hard to find a jury in the U.S. that would convict anyone in this club of any criminal wrongdoing if they were each able to show they had, in fact, paid for and still owned all the books they each held digital copies of.
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:18 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nekokami View Post
I can't promise it's legal to download copies of books you have, either. As I said, I'm not a lawyer. But it seems to me that it ought to be legal to scan them yourself under "fair use," so it ought to be legal to get a copy that someone else has scanned, if you already own the book in paper. (This is all according to my understanding of U.S. law, and may not apply in other countries.)
The problem is that "fair use" is a *defense* and not a *right*. (Sadly). It's also not absolute. So it's not "legal under fair use", but if you get sued, you can claim "fair use" and hope that the judge sees it your way. You might not have an airtight case, either... While you're using the book for personal use, and you're not affecting the market (as long as it's not available in ebook form), you are using the whole work, and if it's a novel it's made up out of whole cloth (as opposed to being mostly factual, which is easier to claim).

Then, of course, even if the judge agrees with you this time, a different person under the exact same circumstances might be found liable, since "fair use" isn't absolute. So really, you can't know whether downloading a work you own is legal or not until you've gone through court to find out. (At least, if you're relying on Fair Use.)

I should note that you're not likely at all to get sued for this, as no one is tracking ebook downloaders, and even if they were, they would likely take the same tack as the music industry and go after uploaders, instead. Also, this isn't a criminal copyright offense, so you can't be "found guilty" or sent to jail, it's a civil offense, so you can only be found liable and fined. (Again, not that that would actually happen...) So it's not like robbing a bank, it's more like not maintaining your sidewalk and having someone slip and fall. Are you liable? No one knows until the judge or jury says. (WARNING: This may be a terrible analogy.)

I should also note that I'm not a lawyer, I'm just a hobbyist who likes copyright law too much for his own good ;-)

Here's a page on the fair use defense: http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/intellec...ypol2.htm#test
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:09 AM   #98
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In the Third Reich it was also not legal to help jews.

To obey this law didn´t made it right, anyway. So the argument with the law is a little bit fluffy ...
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:58 AM   #99
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In the Third Reich it was also not legal to help jews.

To obey this law didn´t made it right, anyway. So the argument with the law is a little bit fluffy ...
But downloading the latest Harry Potter book is not going to get you put to death.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:21 PM   #100
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A few words on filesharing.

If you can legaly make a copy of your perchased book in your country, then you probably can download a version aswell. The highly illegal factor of torrents and p2p is, that while you download, you distribute. And that is illegal almost anywhere.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:27 PM   #101
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But downloading the latest Harry Potter book is not going to get you put to death.
Unless a Death Eater finds out about us filthy Muggles!

The harm being done by piracy is a reduction of sales.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:21 PM   #102
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The harm being done by piracy is a reduction of sales.
That is unproven. For that to be true, you must prove that everyone who pirated the eBook would (and could) have purchased the real book.

If someone was unable to purchase the paper book, and downloaded the eBook, there is no reduction in sales.

From what we've seen, the vast majority who "pirate" either wouldn't have purchased the paper book, or did purchase the paper book as well.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:26 PM   #103
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For some friends I have seen another effect. They have found some e-Books ... and after they read it they were buying it for the company. So the e-Book has pushed sailes for the paper version as well ...
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:37 PM   #104
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That's the model that Baen is using with their free library, and it's apparently bearing fruit.

Personally, I downloaded an e-copy of HP7 (and 1-6 for that matter), I also pre-ordered the book back in February (have paper copies of 1-6 too, 3-7 are hardback), and I'd happily purchase official e-versions if I could get 'em. So in my case, the "piracy" certainly hasn't reduced sales any, the only thing that has done that is that they won't sell it to me in the format I want!

I know there are folks who won't buy the thing in any format who are downloading it for free, but those folks aren't going to buy it no matter what, so they're not really "lost" sales, per se.

It seems to me (my opinion here) that there would be very few folks who download the book instead of buying it who would buy it if the bootleg e-book weren't available, if that's actually so, then there can't be all that many "lost" sales due to it.
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Old 07-26-2007, 09:19 AM   #105
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That is unproven. For that to be true, you must prove that everyone who pirated the eBook would (and could) have purchased the real book.
Would it not be more correct to say that you must prove that anyone who pirated the eBook would (and could) have purchased a legal copy? I would think that a publisher might object to "some" lost sales as well as assuming that all pirated copies resulted in lost sales.

Not that I think that any authors or publishers have been seriously hurt by book filesharing, mind. I do think that most people who get digital copies of books either buy (or have already bought) a paper copy, or would not have paid in any case, and often people buy the book after reading the digital version, or buy more books by the same author. But I see no reason to speak in absolutist terms about piracy, in either direction.
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