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Old 07-22-2007, 08:04 PM   #76
Roy White
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Here's a question you should ask yourself before you download a pirated book...

"If I was in a restaurant, and I saw J.K. Rowling sitting there with a five dollar bill sticking out of her pocket, would I sneak over behind her, and steal the money out of her pocket simply beacuse she is a millionaire?

If the answer is no, (And I suspect for most people that haven't done actual jail time it is) then you cant download the book becasue ... IT IS THE EXACT SAME THING!
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Old 07-22-2007, 08:59 PM   #77
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Is there an electronic copy I can buy legally? No.

If it is impossible to purchase the ebook, then downloading it illegally could pnotossibly deprive the author or publisher of any money.

So long as there is no legitimate ebook of HP, the economic argument is moot.

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Originally Posted by Roy White View Post
Here's a question you should ask yourself before you download a pirated book...

"If I was in a restaurant, and I saw J.K. Rowling sitting there with a five dollar bill sticking out of her pocket, would I sneak over behind her, and steal the money out of her pocket simply beacuse she is a millionaire?

If the answer is no, (And I suspect for most people that haven't done actual jail time it is) then you cant download the book becasue ... IT IS THE EXACT SAME THING!
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Old 07-22-2007, 09:00 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
Is there an electronic copy I can buy legally? No.

If it is impossible to purchase the ebook, then downloading it illegally could pnotossibly deprive the author or publisher of any money.

So long as there is no legitimate ebook of HP, the economic argument is moot.
Actually, downloading the electronic copy could deprive Rowling of money. Because if you've downloaded that to read instead of purchasing the book, then yes you are. But if you have purchased the book and downloaded it then no, you are not depriving anyone of anything.
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Old 07-22-2007, 09:20 PM   #79
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Actually, downloading the electronic copy could deprive Rowling of money. Because if you've downloaded that to read instead of purchasing the book, then yes you are. But if you have purchased the book and downloaded it then no, you are not depriving anyone of anything.
For your argument to be valid, you would need to show a correlation between the download of the ebook edition and the non-purchase of the dead-tree edition. This would be very hard to do because Baen Books provides strong evidence against you. The ebook titles they give away and sell have a boosting effect on the sale of paper editions of those titles.

Also, am I depriving her of money by checking the book out of the public library?

Anyway, my position in this is moot on two points. I do not have the funds to purchase books right now. And I do not read her books. I am not going to invest my time in reading another marginal author.
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Old 07-23-2007, 02:52 AM   #80
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Actually, downloading the electronic copy could deprive Rowling of money. Because if you've downloaded that to read instead of purchasing the book, then yes you are. But if you have purchased the book and downloaded it then no, you are not depriving anyone of anything.
and here comes the eternally used argument/excuse/reasoning: "what if i just rented the book from the library or borrowed it from my friends?"
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Old 07-23-2007, 10:06 AM   #81
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Nate. Put yourself in her shoes.... You're at a restaurant.. Someone steals money out of your pocket... You catch them at it.. They say, "Hey! I cant get money any other way!"

Or give you some other such baloney excuse to justufy their petty theft...

You'r argument still doesn't hold water. If she doesn't want her art in e book form, thats her right as the creator of that art. Will you justify theft in the physical world (Shoplifting for example) using the same arguments?

The library is a legal institution and therefore under a different set of circumstances entirely.
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Old 07-23-2007, 10:54 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy White View Post
Nate. Put yourself in her shoes.... You're at a restaurant.. Someone steals money out of your pocket... You catch them at it.. They say, "Hey! I cant get money any other way!"

Or give you some other such baloney excuse to justufy their petty theft...

You'r argument still doesn't hold water. If she doesn't want her art in e book form, thats her right as the creator of that art. Will you justify theft in the physical world (Shoplifting for example) using the same arguments?

The library is a legal institution and therefore under a different set of circumstances entirely.

You are confusing physical items with digital. If I steal something from the store, I am preventing someone else from buying it. This costs the retailer money.

If I download a copy of an illicit ebook, I am not stopping anyone else from buying the paper edition. I am not even stopping anyone from buying the ebook in this case because it cannot be bought.

You keep saying that I am removing money from her pocket by downloading the ebook. Please explain how I can give her money for the ebook. I can't! She will not accept it.

If you can explain how I can give her money for the ebook copy (other than buying a paper copy), then I will concede the argument.


P.S. I just want to make clear that I have no illegal ebooks, music, etc. I am entirely opposed to stealing them. But I am taking the opposite position on this argument because everyone talks about stealing from JK Rowling when she won't take the money!
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Old 07-23-2007, 11:35 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy White View Post
Here's a question you should ask yourself before you download a pirated book...

"If I was in a restaurant, and I saw J.K. Rowling sitting there with a five dollar bill sticking out of her pocket, would I sneak over behind her, and steal the money out of her pocket simply beacuse she is a millionaire?

If the answer is no, (And I suspect for most people that haven't done actual jail time it is) then you cant download the book becasue ... IT IS THE EXACT SAME THING!
No it isn´t. It is also possible to lend the book from a library and read it. After that procedure you have read the content and you haven´t payed JKR a dime - so its obviously a wrong argument ...
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Old 07-23-2007, 11:38 AM   #84
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No it isn´t. It is also possible to lend the book from a library and read it. After that procedure you have read the content and you haven´t payed JKR a dime - so its obviously a wrong argument ...
And by the way, she is an USD billionaire .. not a millionaire ...

Last edited by joblack; 07-24-2007 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:35 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
You are confusing physical items with digital. If I steal something from the store, I am preventing someone else from buying it. This costs the retailer money.
This is why the "piracy" term is confusing (intentionally so). If I "pirate" an object, it's implied that someone had the object and now that someone doesn't. But that is not the case when I "pirate" a virtual object.

A more correct example uses what I call the "magic duplicating machine" which, when pointed at any object, creates, for no cost, an exact duplicate.

So, back to the (bad) example:
I am in a cafe. JK is sitting there with a $5 bill in her pocket. I point my magic duplicating machine at the $5, and now I have $5 too. JK still has her $5. She has incurred no obvious loss. She's probably unaware of that it even occured. (Of course, now the G-Men will be raiding me for counterfeiting - but that's another story.)

When it comes to her book, the only loss that JK incurs is loss of copyright. She is no longer in control of copies of her work. And you rightly point out: had she met the market demands and produced an eBook, she would have incurred a much smaller loss.
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:42 PM   #86
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If I borrow the book from someone and read it or take it out of the library to read, the author is not getting any money. Downloading the ebook also is giving Rowling no money. The only way she'll get money is if I buy the dead tree edition. Of course, given the long lines at the library, if I want to read the book any time soon, I'd have to buy it ro download it.
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:48 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlauzon View Post
This is why the "piracy" term is confusing (intentionally so). If I "pirate" an object, it's implied that someone had the object and now that someone doesn't. But that is not the case when I "pirate" a virtual object.

A more correct example uses what I call the "magic duplicating machine" which, when pointed at any object, creates, for no cost, an exact duplicate.

So, back to the (bad) example:
I am in a cafe. JK is sitting there with a $5 bill in her pocket. I point my magic duplicating machine at the $5, and now I have $5 too. JK still has her $5. She has incurred no obvious loss. She's probably unaware of that it even occured. (Of course, now the G-Men will be raiding me for counterfeiting - but that's another story.)

When it comes to her book, the only loss that JK incurs is loss of copyright. She is no longer in control of copies of her work. And you rightly point out: had she met the market demands and produced an eBook, she would have incurred a much smaller loss.
"Loss" in this instance is an monetary term. It does not apply in this case. There cannot be any loss. She made the decision that her income from the ebook version would be zero.

Let me give an example. I decide to make ten chairs. I sell 8, one is broken in the store, and one is stolen. I have had a loss of two chairs.

Her ebooks have sold zero copies. She has earned zero pounds from them.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:12 PM   #88
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RE: Theft - or not?

Roy,

It's not the same thing at all. First, the (hypothetical) money stolen from JKR at the restaurant is money she has earned - and received. The (potential) money she's not earning from her (potential) ebooks has *not* been earned because she *refuses* to make it available in that form. If she refuses to make it available in a form that all those ebook customers desire, then it is their right to make that form available to themselves. Note that no one is *selling* these ebook versions, they're just creating and distributing them. Since *she* has no desire to engage in this transaction and *they're* not engaging in a transaction, there's no theft of property. Intellectual property, you say? Hardly. Because the books are *still* available from the libraries, from friends and family willing to loan them out, and even from people who *buy* them just so they can make *free* ebook versions to give away.

She's said the money means nothing to her. (Yes, by refusing to consider sales of ebook versions of her stories, that is *exactly* the position she's taking.) Our (people who prefer ebooks) money isn't 'valuable' enough for her to go after. Then, when we find a way to get our ebook versions, she shouts 'FOUL'?!? If she didn't want people to read her stories, she shouldn't have written them.

BTW, have you ever studied the statistics? Those who download 'free' ebook versions of copyrighted novels quite often have dead tree versions sitting in their closets and on their bookshelves. All many of these people are doing is putting the stories into a storage format that is most convenient to them. Which they have the right to do if the publisher refuses to make such available to them.

Derek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy White View Post
Nate. Put yourself in her shoes.... You're at a restaurant.. Someone steals money out of your pocket... You catch them at it.. They say, "Hey! I cant get money any other way!"

Or give you some other such baloney excuse to justufy their petty theft...

You'r argument still doesn't hold water. If she doesn't want her art in e book form, thats her right as the creator of that art. Will you justify theft in the physical world (Shoplifting for example) using the same arguments?

The library is a legal institution and therefore under a different set of circumstances entirely.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:29 PM   #89
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In some countries (the UK I believe is one) authors are paid from a pool of money based on how many of their books are loaned by the libraries. So there is some compensation there in some countries.

HP7 represents JKR's intellectual property (IP) and while she is alive she has the right to determine how and when it will be used. Since she has not authorized an electronic edition of the books any ebook of the HP series is therefore a counterfeit and illegal on the surface. The argument that it is legal because no legitimate one exists in nature is also flawed for the same reason. The only legal way to get an HP book is to buy a paper version.

In economics the ebook is a substitute for the pbook. They can be interchanged like butter for margarine. Both serve the same purpose of providing the text of the story to be read.
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Old 07-23-2007, 06:35 PM   #90
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Unless someone has a coherent argument to convey, I am going to avoid this discussion.

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In some countries (the UK I believe is one) authors are paid from a pool of money based on how many of their books are loaned by the libraries. So there is some compensation there in some countries.

HP7 represents JKR's intellectual property (IP) and while she is alive she has the right to determine how and when it will be used. Since she has not authorized an electronic edition of the books any ebook of the HP series is therefore a counterfeit and illegal on the surface. The argument that it is legal because no legitimate one exists in nature is also flawed for the same reason. The only legal way to get an HP book is to buy a paper version.

In economics the ebook is a substitute for the pbook. They can be interchanged like butter for margarine. Both serve the same purpose of providing the text of the story to be read.
I do not claim that it is legal. I merely state that JK Rowling is not being harmed.

Economically, an ebook is not equivalent to a paperback book is not equivalent to a hardback book. The dollar amount they are sold for is not the same. I cannot take one in and trade it equal with another. I believe you mean to say that they are functionally equivalent. That is somewhat true, but irrelevant to this discussion. We are discussing the economics of the situation.


@delphidb96
I disagree with your statement of a "right" to download. It is still theft even if you cannot buy it legally. But in this situation, the value of the theft is $0.00. That is the whole point of my argument.

P.S. Are you trying to be ironic or sarcastic? I can't tell.
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