An argument we are having at work... - Page 2

JSWolf · 07-29-2009, 02:10 PM

Religion doesn't make sense and yet a lot of people believe in it.

ahi · 07-29-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Religion doesn't make sense and yet a lot of people believe in it.

Phew...

For a moment I was afraid you'd say something rude, arbitrary, and irrelevant!

- Ahi

Mnementh · 07-29-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Religion doesn't make sense and yet a lot of people believe in it.

Only because they've been indoctrinated from a very young age.

pdurrant · 07-29-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ficbot

And he told me that it's all pretend anyway so it doesn't have to make sense. I say fiction or not, it still has to make sense and if there is some special explanation for something illogical, they need to clue the reader in. So, what do you think...it's all pretend so who cares, or I am right to demand an explanation.

I hate fiction that is internally inconsistent.

It doesn't really matter what the subject matter is. E.g., historical novels shouldn't have glaring anachronisms.

ahi · 07-29-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mnementh

Only because they've been indoctrinated from a very young age.

Quite right.

The same dastardly practice is responsible for most people's obstinate belief in wearing clothes even in weather that does not necessitate it.

I propose government legislation against both of these forms of heinous brainwashing.

- Ahi

GlennD · 07-29-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Religion doesn't make sense and yet a lot of people believe in it.

Clearly, it makes sense to the religious.

ahi · 07-29-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I hate fiction that is internally inconsistent.

It doesn't really matter what the subject matter is. E.g., historical novels shouldn't have glaring anachronisms.

I think that's the key: internal consistency.

There's nothing wrong with implausible stuff, so long as the writer has explained why it is so despite the apparent implausibility.

But I hate feeling smarter than the writer.

If I figured it out, he/she should also have. It seems pointless to read something written by somebody who is clearly intellectually duller than I... hell, what if I catch what they have?

- Ahi

ahammer · 07-29-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennD

Clearly, it makes sense to the religious.

both sides have no logical grounds to be belive what they do..
there by it make no sense to belive or not to belive.

now lets move one before this starts a flame war and the mods take away the news and commentary forum

ahi · 07-29-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahammer

both sides have no logical grounds to be belive what they do..
there by it make no sense to belive or not to belive.

now lets move one before this starts a flame war and the mods take away the news and commentary forum

Why must common sense prevail every single time I suggest massive and Orwellian government interference in the private lives of people as the solution to a problem?

- Ahi

MaggieScratch · 07-29-2009, 02:49 PM

Of course the plot must be logical, even in fiction.

Stephen King's book Misery talks about this. You may be familiar with the plot--a writer crashes his car in a remote area and is taken in by a crazy killer nurse who is his Number One Fan and forces him to write a book to bring back to life his main character, whom the crazy nurse loved and the writer killed off.

At first the writer figures she's not that discerning a reader and will be happy with anything, and he writes some crazy melodramatic comes-back-to-life story. Annie (the crazy nurse) reads it and says, "No, this won't do. You're cheating." She explains that when she was a child, she went to see the weekly serial at the Saturday movie matinee, and one week the hero's car had plunged off a cliff and burst into flames. All week she wondered and worried about the hero, and hurried back the next week to see what had happened. It turned out he had jumped out of the car before it plunged off the cliff. But they hadn't shown that, and she felt cheated. She said sloppy plotting was cheating. She made him rewrite it and make it good and not cheating.

Misery is a great book. It's not just a horror novel--it's about the writer's muse. Seriously!

That being said, I agree that NYC would be an odd place to go after a nuclear war--it seems like it would be one of the most devastated places. Out in Montana or something makes more sense.

Sonist · 07-29-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahammer

both sides have no logical grounds to be belive what they do..
there by it make no sense to belive or not to belive....

Really...? Are you sure this statement makes any sense?

I wasn't going to jump in, but some statements need to be thunder-bolted.

Robertb · 07-29-2009, 02:57 PM

Dear All:

I am one of those people who feel that the best part of fiction is that it is plausible, could happen, I can picture it and build a painting in my head, and that parts of it may or may not be fiction.

Travis McGee (by John D. McDonald) was a big drifting beach bum with a penchant for helping people in need. The fascinating part was after reading twenty Travis McGee books... I felt Travis was almost a friend. The fiction was so close to non-fiction that I could place myself there easily. It always made perfect sense because John D. McDonald was a master author... he made Travis McGee come to life just as Roddenbury made Spock come to life within all of us.

There is an old saying called "Live The Dream". To me, that is good fiction!

Sweetpea · 07-29-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robertb

Dear All:

I am one of those people who feel that the best part of fiction is that it is plausible, could happen

I agree with this. It is sci-fi so it probably won't work right now, but there is some theory (however twisted) that would make it possible. The same with fantasy. Even that should have some logic behind it. The best books are those that are well thought through. There is a backstory (that isn't told, but rather hinted at) that does explain everything that happens.

ahi · 07-29-2009, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonist

Really...? Are you sure this statement makes any sense?

I wasn't going to jump in, but some statements need to be thunder-bolted.

Yeah, but surely it's not when somebody tries to reconciliatorily suggest that neither side is obviously right... as opposed to agreeing with you that your side is right and the other wrong.

- Ahi

Steven Lyle Jordan · 07-29-2009, 03:07 PM

Suspension of disbelief is always up to the reader to decide. There are plenty of examples of plots and settings in SF that the reader suspends a lot of disbelief in... the entire Star Trek canon, for instance. But even if you ignore the scientific fallacies, mostly engineered to advance the stories, you can find some great literature in there. (Sometimes.)

On the other hand, if you are more demanding of your science, suspending your disbelief can ruin the story for you. So you decide what is and is not acceptable, to allow you to enjoy the story experience.

Some people can turn it on and off at will, others can't. So you just go with what works for you, you either swallow the scientific problems (and even the best SF literature has it), or you stand by them, and see what stories are left for you.

07-29-2009, 02:10 PM	#16
JSWolf Mobile Reader Geek Posts: 34,226 Karma: 13801376 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Sony Reader PRS-650, iPad	Religion doesn't make sense and yet a lot of people believe in it. __________________ Jon 2013 Reading List

07-29-2009, 02:49 PM	#25
MaggieScratch Has got to the black veil Posts: 537 Karma: 7960 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Device: Nook Color, Nook Simple Touch	Of course the plot must be logical, even in fiction. Stephen King's book Misery talks about this. You may be familiar with the plot--a writer crashes his car in a remote area and is taken in by a crazy killer nurse who is his Number One Fan and forces him to write a book to bring back to life his main character, whom the crazy nurse loved and the writer killed off. At first the writer figures she's not that discerning a reader and will be happy with anything, and he writes some crazy melodramatic comes-back-to-life story. Annie (the crazy nurse) reads it and says, "No, this won't do. You're cheating." She explains that when she was a child, she went to see the weekly serial at the Saturday movie matinee, and one week the hero's car had plunged off a cliff and burst into flames. All week she wondered and worried about the hero, and hurried back the next week to see what had happened. It turned out he had jumped out of the car before it plunged off the cliff. But they hadn't shown that, and she felt cheated. She said sloppy plotting was cheating. She made him rewrite it and make it good and not cheating. Misery is a great book. It's not just a horror novel--it's about the writer's muse. Seriously! That being said, I agree that NYC would be an odd place to go after a nuclear war--it seems like it would be one of the most devastated places. Out in Montana or something makes more sense. __________________ 'You speak like a heroine,' said Montoni, contemptuously; 'we shall see whether you can suffer like one.' – The Mysteries of Udolpho by Ann Radcliffe, Volume III, Chapter V

07-29-2009, 02:57 PM	#27
Robertb Astak Director, Bus. Devl Posts: 2,560 Karma: 2500000 Join Date: Apr 2008 Device: Astak Pocket PRO	The best part of fiction is... Dear All: I am one of those people who feel that the best part of fiction is that it is plausible, could happen, I can picture it and build a painting in my head, and that parts of it may or may not be fiction. Travis McGee (by John D. McDonald) was a big drifting beach bum with a penchant for helping people in need. The fascinating part was after reading twenty Travis McGee books... I felt Travis was almost a friend. The fiction was so close to non-fiction that I could place myself there easily. It always made perfect sense because John D. McDonald was a master author... he made Travis McGee come to life just as Roddenbury made Spock come to life within all of us. There is an old saying called "Live The Dream". To me, that is good fiction! __________________ Robert B Astak Blog: www.robertbEZ.blogspot.com Domestic purchase website: www.theEZreader.com International purchase website: www.astak.com Other Astak products: www.astak.com\ New eBook Store: www.EZread.com Comments made are my thoughts and not necessarily those of Astak.

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07-29-2009, 03:07 PM	#30
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,482 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	Suspension of disbelief is always up to the reader to decide. There are plenty of examples of plots and settings in SF that the reader suspends a lot of disbelief in... the entire Star Trek canon, for instance. But even if you ignore the scientific fallacies, mostly engineered to advance the stories, you can find some great literature in there. (Sometimes.) On the other hand, if you are more demanding of your science, suspending your disbelief can ruin the story for you. So you decide what is and is not acceptable, to allow you to enjoy the story experience. Some people can turn it on and off at will, others can't. So you just go with what works for you, you either swallow the scientific problems (and even the best SF literature has it), or you stand by them, and see what stories are left for you.


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