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Old 07-03-2009, 10:43 AM   #46
Abecedary
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Originally Posted by rhadin View Post
Do you really own your Kindle? When Amazon can automatically choose to update your firmware and make changes to your Kindle without your consent, it makes me wonder how much ownership there really is?
Agreed. Isn't this all part of the user/license agreement every Kindle owner agrees to when they purchase the device? It seems that people are getting upset over something that they themselves agreed to let Amazon do.
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Old 07-03-2009, 10:44 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by rhadin View Post
In the case of Ayn Rand's books, I agree with you, Daffy. I do think Amazon did the right thing. But that obfuscates the more serious problem.

What if some rightwing (or leftwing) group gained enough power to demand that Amazon remove all books about evolution or creationism from all Kindles (kinda like the "remove this offensive book from the library" movements found around the country) and Amazon complied because the economic consequences to Amazon of not complying were too great. Would you think Amazon was in the right? Should Amazon have such unfettered power?
If that happens, we have a whole lot more to worry about than what Amazon does with Kindles.

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What if Jeff Bezos suddenly had an epiphany and decided that the only acceptable scriptures that could be loaded on a Kindle were those that he authorized as part of his messianic mission to save the world? Or that any books critical of him and/or Amazon were not permitted?
What if the sun blew up? Or cars turned into giant warring robots?

Quote:
I admit to being facetious and certainly would not expect to see such things occur,
Me too!

Quote:
but then again who in 1922 thought Adolf Hitler was for real? Isn't the fact of having such power troublesome even though it is not being misused today? What happens when Saint Jeff gives up the reins to Devil Sam?
I guess the end is near.
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Old 07-03-2009, 11:08 AM   #48
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microsoft's terms for windows and various products like media player have given them permission to "look" inside your computer for years. and let's not forget that if a company overpays you via direct deposit in the u.s., they can go right in and remove that money, then deposit a different amount.

i think all this stuff is extremely intrusive and undermines our privacy (originally i was going to say "right to privacy", but obviously we don't have that), but on the other hand, seems like no one reads their terms and conditions. i know a couple guys whose computers were shut down via microsoft when they found "stolen" software. in the case of both guys, they didn't have stolen software. in one case, it took my friend two weeks to get everything cleared up with microsoft so he could use his computer again.
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Old 07-03-2009, 11:10 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argel View Post
Can you say what makes you conclude that this is the case?

The Amazon terms state: The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it.

In other words Amazon make it quite clear that they will look at what you have on your Kindle. And that has presumably to be taken in the light of another condition of sale, namely: You may not use the Device, the Service or the Digital Content for any illegal purpose.
So, what if you were writing a term paper, a thesis, on Ayn Rand's Altas Shrugged. You simply name it Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand (since it's your device and you know where the book and thesis are saved respctively). Amazon trolls through your devie, and removes both files, since they both seem to be by Ayn Rand.

There goes your final grade. Instead of "Sorry teacher, My dog ate my homework", it's "Sorry professor, Amazon ate my homework"
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Old 07-03-2009, 11:22 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhadin View Post
In the case of Ayn Rand's books, I agree with you, Daffy. I do think Amazon did the right thing. But that obfuscates the more serious problem.

What if some rightwing (or leftwing) group gained enough power to demand that Amazon remove all books about evolution or creationism from all Kindles (kinda like the "remove this offensive book from the library" movements found around the country) and Amazon complied because the economic consequences to Amazon of not complying were too great. Would you think Amazon was in the right? Should Amazon have such unfettered power?

What if Jeff Bezos suddenly had an epiphany and decided that the only acceptable scriptures that could be loaded on a Kindle were those that he authorized as part of his messianic mission to save the world? Or that any books critical of him and/or Amazon were not permitted?

I admit to being facetious and certainly would not expect to see such things occur, but then again who in 1922 thought Adolf Hitler was for real? Isn't the fact of having such power troublesome even though it is not being misused today? What happens when Saint Jeff gives up the reins to Devil Sam?
This has already happened in one way: Amazon removed all gay and lesbian romance novels from their search engine. There has been a huge kerfuffle about it in LGBT circles, and Amazon admitted to doing it publicly, giving no reason for this action.
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Old 07-03-2009, 11:26 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by doreenjoy View Post
This has already happened in one way: Amazon removed all gay and lesbian romance novels from their search engine. There has been a huge kerfuffle about it in LGBT circles, and Amazon admitted to doing it publicly, giving no reason for this action.
Not exactly true.

From the Kindle lifestyles selection.
partment

* ‹ Kindle Store
* ‹ Kindle Books
* Lifestyle & Home
* Cooking, Food & Wine (3,298)
* Gay & Lesbian (309)
* Home & Garden (4,737)
* Parenting & Families (6,247)
* Poker (111)
* Puzzles & Games (1,007)

http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=12466347...Cn%3A292975011
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Old 07-03-2009, 11:27 AM   #52
desertgrandma
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When I typed "Lesbian" into the Kindle books search engine, this is what I got.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_ki...esbian&x=0&y=0
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Old 07-03-2009, 11:28 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhadin View Post
Do you really own your Kindle? When Amazon can automatically choose to update your firmware and make changes to your Kindle without your consent, it makes me wonder how much ownership there really is?
It's an interesting concept to ponder -- the customer owns the physical medium (the Kindle) but leases/shares the content with Amazon. Hence, if the customer sells the physical Kindle to someone else, the content stays with Amazon and the customer's account. A sticking point seems to be the content - that purchased from Amazon versus personal additions (legal or otherwise). Does adding your personal items to the shared content make it all belong to Amazon too? Under the Amazon usage definitions?

Also, has anyone bought a used Kindle which the previous owner left stuff on? After you registered it on YOUR Amazon account, did Amazon delete the stuff belonging to the former owner?
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Old 07-03-2009, 11:35 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by desertgrandma View Post
Not exactly true.

From the Kindle lifestyles selection.
partment

* ‹ Kindle Store
* ‹ Kindle Books
* Lifestyle & Home
* Cooking, Food & Wine (3,298)
* Gay & Lesbian (309)
* Home & Garden (4,737)
* Parenting & Families (6,247)
* Poker (111)
* Puzzles & Games (1,007)

http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=12466347...Cn%3A292975011

That isn't what I'm talking about. I don't really have time for a long discussion. Search for "amazon censors GLBT" and you'll find plenty, including the letters Jeff Bezos sent to authors who complained.

http://www.gossiprocks.com/forum/boo...e3-100888.html Be sure to read the comments to get the real scoop. They absolutely removed LGBT titles from the search & sales rankings.

Last edited by doreenjoy; 07-03-2009 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 07-03-2009, 11:56 AM   #55
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Although Amazon will remove a book from your Kindle, they will not (yet) remove the copy you made to your computer.
You did copy the file to your computer, right?
You can copy it back to the Kindle someday and ready it again, I suppose.
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Old 07-03-2009, 12:29 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doreenjoy View Post
That isn't what I'm talking about. I don't really have time for a long discussion. Search for "amazon censors GLBT" and you'll find plenty, including the letters Jeff Bezos sent to authors who complained.

http://www.gossiprocks.com/forum/boo...e3-100888.html Be sure to read the comments to get the real scoop. They absolutely removed LGBT titles from the search & sales rankings.
They may have removed them, but they are back.......all you have to do is type in "Lesbian"on the kindle books search links and they come up. Both sales ranking and search. The following is the first book that came up.

Product Details

* Format: Kindle Edition
* File Size: 51 KB
* Publisher: MC Publications (February 14, 2008)
* Sold by: Amazon Digital Services
* Language: English
* ASIN: B00140Q8TC
* Average Customer Review:
1 Review
5 star: (0)
4 star: (0)
3 star: (0)
2 star: (0)
1 star:
(1)

› See all customer reviews...
1.0 out of 5 stars See all reviews (1 customer review)
* Amazon.com Sales Rank: #22,654 in Kindle Store (See Bestsellers in Kindle Store)

Popular in this category: (What's this?)
#5 in Books > Gay & Lesbian > Nonfiction > Sexuality > Lesbians
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Old 07-03-2009, 01:01 PM   #57
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It was more than just Lesbian and gay titles. It was also not all of them (just a majority from what was reported at the time).

And it's also not true to say that "no reason was given" they did give a reason and stated that it was not intentional, but an unexpected result of another change they had made if memory serves.

Whether or not you believe this explanation is another point entirely.
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Old 07-03-2009, 01:08 PM   #58
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All of this is another reason for me to never buy a Kindle and to recommend to anyone I talk to that they avoid the Kindle. There is no way I want anyone being able to remotely spy on whatever I decide to load on my device. Whether loaded through Amazon, or private documents I load myself. I do not want amazon spying on my device and possibly reading whatever private documents I've decided I need to carry on my device.
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Old 07-03-2009, 01:10 PM   #59
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Amazon's explanation: http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6651080.html

The discussion here about the problem at the time: http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44781
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Old 07-03-2009, 01:13 PM   #60
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In the case of Ayn Rand's books, I agree with you, Daffy. I do think Amazon did the right thing. But that obfuscates the more serious problem.
LOOK OUT! LOOK OUT! There's a camel's nose under the tent over there!
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