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Old 07-03-2009, 12:23 AM   #31
wodin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Wild View Post
Whether Amazon should or shouldn't rectify this situation in the manner it did - wouldn't they be in for a big, fat lawsuit if they did not? Aren't publishing & disribution laws some of the most strident of all?

BTW, this isn't an opinion - just asking about the legal ramifications.
Yes, and they should be, they violated copyrights and should be held accountable. Their customers didn't do it! They purchased the ebooks in good faith, and should not be disadvantaged in any way by Amazon's negligence. What if you had bought a page turner and was three quarters of the way through it and someone stole it. Would you be upset? Especially if you couldn't replace it?

Amazon should be found guilty of criminal action for logging on to their customers' devices and stealing their duly purchased property in order to attempt to mitigate their responsibility in civil court.
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Old 07-03-2009, 12:33 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ham88 View Post
I think the only concerning matter is what if, in the future, amazon loses the rights to a book, what happens to everybody that bought it?
This has already happened and if a book is pulled, the people who bought it still have access to it.

The Stand by Stephen King was pulled for months and still I was able to redownload it during the time it was unavailable.
Boyd Morrison's books were pulled from the Amazon store and others still have access to them.

(A few) people are blowing this way out of proportion.

A pirated book was uploaded by some guy and when Amazon found out (keep in mind that 3000+ books are uploaded a day to the Kindle store and that anybody can upload to the store), they pulled it along with refunding everybody.

Trying to what if... this or spin Amazon into some crazy Big Brother conspiracy is crazy since there has only been two instances of Amazon actually removing files from a Kindle.

1) Pirated book is uploaded by somebody.
2) Non-payment for Whispernet delivery/conversion.

That's it

Quote:
Originally Posted by doreenjoy View Post
And I don't see what the ownership of a certain brand of reader has to do with anything. I used to own a Kindle, now I don't. That shouldn't mean I'm not entitled to voice my opinion on any thread.
Because they seem to mostly be nothing more than thinly-veiled attacks against Amazon or Kindle instead of actually discussing the topic at hand?

Last edited by Sporadic; 07-03-2009 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 07-03-2009, 12:39 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sporadic View Post
This has already happened and if a book is pulled, the people who bought it still have access to it.

The Stand by Stephen King was pulled for months and still I was able to redownload it during the time it was unavailable.
Boyd Morrison's books were pulled from the Amazon store and others still have access to them.
Thank you for clarifying that. Now I don't see what the big deal about this is at all.
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Old 07-03-2009, 01:24 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Ham88 View Post
Thank you for clarifying that. Now I don't see what the big deal about this is at all.
The big deal is that Amazon.com can and does willfully and with intent trespass into their customers property and remove content which has been duly paid for in order to mitigate their own liability for negligence.

I the instance where the customer's card was expired, they still don't have the right to, without permission, delete the files without a court order. They have to seek remedy by legal means.
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Old 07-03-2009, 01:55 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by wodin View Post
The big deal is that Amazon.com can and does willfully and with intent trespass into their customers property and remove content which has been duly paid for in order to mitigate their own liability for negligence.

I the instance where the customer's card was expired, they still don't have the right to, without permission, delete the files without a court order. They have to seek remedy by legal means.
Doesn't work like that in the digital world.
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Old 07-03-2009, 02:47 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by susan_cassidy View Post
Mobipocket format books have a unique identifier embedded in them. It would be easy enough to search books for that identifier.
Does this identifier still exist in the file if the DRM is removed? If so, does it exist if you change the format of the ebook (convert to ePub, for example) and then convert it back to mobi?
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Old 07-03-2009, 02:55 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Sporadic View Post
Doesn't work like that in the digital world.
Actually, it does. It's why hacking is illegal. It's why law enforcement officials need a search warrant to search your computer. Whether you agree with it or not, computer hacking is already seen as a kind of "trespassing on private property" under the law. How this carries over with the Amazon's rules and the Kindle remains to be seen and probably won't be clarified until it is brought to court (like so many other things in the digital arena).

I'm not worried about Amazon. I strip the DRM off my books and would find other ways of safeguarding my property if I needed to. If all else fails, people can just keep Whispernet off. Then the Kindle is still no less useful than the Sony Reader. Personally, I would still prefer the Kindle for its other features.
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Old 07-03-2009, 06:01 AM   #38
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and this is why i didn't want a kindle. but if i had one, i'd be WAY too paranoid to have drm-stripped books in it since amazon does have access to what's inside.

and be honest, folks - how many of you actually read all the terms and conditions before you bought your kindle? http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...4530&#wireless
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Old 07-03-2009, 06:11 AM   #39
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Thanks for the clarifications. I can see both (or the miltiple) sides to this issue and in the newer digital age I feel these type cases will soon be clogging our court systems from local all the way to the top. I will be interesting to find out when these lawsuits will begine. ACLU anyone?

When purchasing a Kindle and enjoying the easy access to almost instant book downloads you almost have to expect the system runs both ways (not that I agree or disagree with it). Also, they have access to what content you have purchased from them - something many, many retailers and computerie stuff has been doing for eons. BUT it's not like Amazon has access to anything not related to their own content, do they?

Last edited by F1Wild; 07-03-2009 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 07-03-2009, 09:13 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wodin View Post
The big deal is that Amazon.com can and does willfully and with intent trespass into their customers property and remove content which has been duly paid for in order to mitigate their own liability for negligence.
This is incorrect.

By purchasing the Kindle, you've already granted Amazon access to your device. This includes firmware updates and content delivery and management. You've already given them the keys to the house and told them they can put their feet up on the couch.

Nor is Amazon the only company out there with this capability. The iPhone also has a "blacklist" function that can remotely disable applications; subscription music services can deny access to content you've already downloaded, once the service expires.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wodin
I the instance where the customer's card was expired, they still don't have the right to, without permission, delete the files without a court order. They have to seek remedy by legal means.
Again, incorrect.

Access to those documents is a service, not delivery of a tangible good. If you have not paid for the service, you're not entitled to access the service. As far as I can tell, Amazon is well within its legal rights here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Wild
it's not like Amazon has access to anything not related to their own content, do they?
It doesn't look that way. Their database entries for your account (which you can access as the "Reading List" on the website) only tracks Kindle Store purchases. In turn, those documents cannot be managed by Whispernet; e.g. if you have a public domain book on two of your Kindles, the system will not sync both devices to reflect the last page read.
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Old 07-03-2009, 10:13 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by F1Wild View Post
BUT it's not like Amazon has access to anything not related to their own content, do they?
Can you say what makes you conclude that this is the case?

The Amazon terms state: The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it.

In other words Amazon make it quite clear that they will look at what you have on your Kindle. And that has presumably to be taken in the light of another condition of sale, namely: You may not use the Device, the Service or the Digital Content for any illegal purpose.

Taken together that would make me very reluctant to carry any material to which Amazon might take exception, particularly DRM-stripped files, regardless of the fact that they have not so far taken action against DRM-strippers.
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Old 07-03-2009, 10:21 AM   #42
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Apparently, Amazon isn't the only one doing this.

From an article on Kim Kommando re the IPhone

"New technology helps owners of expensive gadgets to get them back after they are lost or stolen. The Find My iPhone feature from Apple, which declined to comment for this story, enables users to determine the phone's location and erase the data on it, among other things."

I guess the difference here is that it clearly states 'users' can erase data.

Here is the entire link
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5615BM20090702

As quickly as technology is moving, it doesn't seem a stretch to think more and more companies will be able to remotely access your electronic device.

Its a part of 'progress'.
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Old 07-03-2009, 10:30 AM   #43
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Whatever the reason, the idea that they both can and WILL reach into your Kindle and control the content is pretty chilling.

Just one more reason I'm happy with my Sony.
Definitely reasonable.
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Old 07-03-2009, 10:33 AM   #44
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Well, you could look at it as Amazon making sure that the authors or their estates get the monies that are due them for their work. This, to me, makes publishers more comfortable working with Amazon because they know Amazon will quickly correct an error.
In the case of Ayn Rand's books, I agree with you, Daffy. I do think Amazon did the right thing. But that obfuscates the more serious problem.

What if some rightwing (or leftwing) group gained enough power to demand that Amazon remove all books about evolution or creationism from all Kindles (kinda like the "remove this offensive book from the library" movements found around the country) and Amazon complied because the economic consequences to Amazon of not complying were too great. Would you think Amazon was in the right? Should Amazon have such unfettered power?

What if Jeff Bezos suddenly had an epiphany and decided that the only acceptable scriptures that could be loaded on a Kindle were those that he authorized as part of his messianic mission to save the world? Or that any books critical of him and/or Amazon were not permitted?

I admit to being facetious and certainly would not expect to see such things occur, but then again who in 1922 thought Adolf Hitler was for real? Isn't the fact of having such power troublesome even though it is not being misused today? What happens when Saint Jeff gives up the reins to Devil Sam?
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Old 07-03-2009, 10:37 AM   #45
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Yes - but what people are objecting to - is Amazon entering their property - we DO own our Kindles, if not their content - and removing the pirated book.
Do you really own your Kindle? When Amazon can automatically choose to update your firmware and make changes to your Kindle without your consent, it makes me wonder how much ownership there really is?
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