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Old 03-01-2009, 10:08 AM   #76
Jellby
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Because they aren't going to miss it. A few bits of information on my computer will be different but the library is no worse off. This is self evident because they will never even notice whether or not I deleted the book. If my action has no potential to cause anyone harm then I don't consider it morally wrong.
It does not harm the library directly, but it can harm the authors. If you keep an ebook from the library, you will feel absolutely no need to purchase it in case you liked it. Whereas if you have to remove the ebook when it expires, you my feel it's more convenient to buy copy for yourself.

Of course, if you don't ever look again (and no one else does) at a file you should have deleted but didn't, there's no difference, but I don't think that's what you'd do.

It's a bit like having an affair and saying it's OK as long as your wife doesn't know...
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:14 AM   #77
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It's a bit like having an affair and saying it's OK as long as your wife doesn't know...
Very good example!
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:14 AM   #78
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To the best of my knowledge, only the Adobe and MobiPocket DRM systems offer the capability of "time limiting". Even with your "DRM is evil" viewpoint, would you not accept that this is a legitimate use for DRM?
Not if it hinders you in easily quoting from a book for example.

If no books sold has DRM there is no reason to have a DRM for library books.
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:22 AM   #79
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Not if it hinders you in easily quoting from a book for example.
It doesn't - at least not in Mobi format; I don't know about ePub.

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If no books sold has DRM there is no reason to have a DRM for library books.
A library system has to have the capability of "checking out" books to a restricted number of users simultaneously. If they have only bought, say, 3 copies of the book, they need to be able to restrict it to 3 simultaneous lenders. Time-limiting DRM enables this; can you suggest a reasonable alternative?
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:33 AM   #80
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Let's back up a bit... you would de-DRM a library book and keep it only if you couldn't find one to steal from the darknet? Basically, you'd buy a book only if you couldn't illegaly acquire it from somewhere else?
My first preference is to buy the ebook. If that's not a possibility then it is usually more convenient to get a shared version from the darknet than find a library with the ebook that I want. If it were the other way around I'd gladly borrow the ebook rather than downloading it.
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:50 AM   #81
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How could you NOT consider it morally wrong to keep a library book?
Unfortunately, IMO what one sees as moral is very personal and will vary between individuals within any society as broad as our larger societies today. In addition it can vary vastly between societies. Personal morals are not base on any absolute sense of right and wrong but on what we individually and societally have been taught and personally accepted as right and wrong. My actions may seem immoral to you while I feel perfectly moral in those actions.

Note: My statements are not intended to make any moral judgments on library book usages. I'll leave that to your own sense of morality.

Last edited by slayda; 03-01-2009 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 03-01-2009, 11:38 AM   #82
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A library system has to have the capability of "checking out" books to a restricted number of users simultaneously. If they have only bought, say, 3 copies of the book, they need to be able to restrict it to 3 simultaneous lenders. Time-limiting DRM enables this; can you suggest a reasonable alternative?
Just count the number of times you lend a book and have a minimum time for the lending. In that way you get the same effect as for paper books.
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Old 03-01-2009, 01:02 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by epiphany View Post
My point is that this argument only applies if the library or someone else is able to learn that you didn't delete the book. If everyone was to start bragging about how they are downloading and not deleting library ebooks then that could change the behaviour of libraries and publishers for the worse. But that is a separate issue to whether or not you hit the delete key (if you are going to keep your mouth shut about it).
So, your defense is, it is ok to commit a crime if you don't/can't get caught. Thank God most people in civilized society don't agree with this.

Gee... so because you are posting it is ok, but aren't you everyone? Or part of everyone?

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Edit: One thing I do agree with you about is that if someone signs a contract with the library that stipulates they mustn't permanently download ebooks then they should keep their promise not to do this (even if the library would never learn what they do).
You have a contract with the library I have no doubt. I assume you have a library card. You applied for it right? This is a "contract". Also, the fact that the ebooks are distributed with a DRM schemes that is designed to keep you from using the book past your checkout time should give you a hint that the do NOT expect or want you to have access to the book permanently.

You reasoning is flawed and self contradictory. Please delete library books once you are done with them. If you want it again, just check it out again!

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Old 03-01-2009, 01:32 PM   #84
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So, your defense is, it is ok to commit a crime if you don't/can't get caught.
Not at all! My defense is that any action which doesn't have the possibility of someone being harmed is not morally wrong.

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You have a contract with the library I have no doubt. I assume you have a library card. You applied for it right? This is a "contract".
Unfortunately no libraries in my state offer OverDrive ebooks so I need to borrow a friend's library number. But yes, if you sign up with a library you should abide by their rules. And that would probably include not removing the DRM in the first place.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:14 PM   #85
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My contract with the library says I will take out no more than 6 books at a time, and will keep them out of circulation for no more than 21 days. If I keep the books and read them at my leisure and delete them when I am done, I have not breached my contract with the library. At the very least, it is a technical breach, and the damages are zero.

I would not buy these books if I could not get them from the library. This does not change my behavior from that with paper books. The books I really wanted to keep, I would buy (Harry Potter), and all the others I would get from the library. That is what I pay for with my taxes to the library. I am still buying the books I want to have permanently or don't want to wait for from the library (Southern Vampire Series) and getting the rest from the library. The fact that I am not reading the books as I get them is different, and perhaps I shouldn't do that, but I can't really think who I am hurting, as long as I have returned the books and delete them after I read them. The fact that I read them on a kindle rather than a Sony reader? Surely that is not the point. Libraries are funded to provide free books for a limited period of time. I could xerox a library book and read it later. I believe there is a copyright exception for personal use. This is the first time I have used my library since I got my kindle. It is better, from the library's perspective, that I use the library, because if I don't, I will not be willing to support it.

If libraries had an open format, I would have no problem reading the library books as I got them. I have 35 pages of books on my kindle, and the thought that I will read all of them before I die is ridiculous, especially since I keep buying books and downloading free (legal) books.

I know this is rationalization (after all, I am a lawyer) but since my behavior is now exactly the same as before I got my kindle, I am not troubled. Is it really immoral?
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:47 PM   #86
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So, your defense is, it is ok to commit a crime if you don't/can't get caught. Thank God most people in civilized society don't agree with this.
Well for some crimes they do agree with this. Certain kind of tax fraud for example. And jaywalking. Removing DRM. And so on.

But the argument was that it was OK if it did not have any bad consequences. And it is a good argument that you have to discus to see if it holds up or not.

Quote:
You have a contract with the library I have no doubt. I assume you have a library card. You applied for it right? This is a "contract". Also, the fact that the ebooks are distributed with a DRM schemes that is designed to keep you from using the book past your checkout time should give you a hint that the do NOT expect or want you to have access to the book permanently.
I think the library would be very happy for you to have access to the book permanently if this did not lead to any bad consequences for the library.
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Old 03-01-2009, 03:12 PM   #87
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Adobe 6 or 7 error message

Who is still using Acrobat 6 or 7 will probably get an error message after opening the PDF. It still works but its the fault of the EBX_* custom properties.

For removing this adjust your

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
def serialize_object(self, obj):
if isinstance(obj, dict):
self.write('<<')
kc = re.compile(r'EBX_\w*')
for key, val in obj.items():
# remove the EBX_ custom properties (Adobe 6 is complaining about)
if kc.match(key):self.write('')
else:
self.write('/%s' % key)
self.serialize_object(val)
self.write('>>')
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem is that some PDFs have aditional metadata so it still complains. I haven't found out yet how to filter these out.
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Old 03-01-2009, 03:28 PM   #88
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My contract with the library says I will take out no more than 6 books at a time, and will keep them out of circulation for no more than 21 days. If I keep the books and read them at my leisure and delete them when I am done, I have not breached my contract with the library. At the very least, it is a technical breach, and the damages are zero.
I have a lot of sympathy with this position. I just cracked my first DRMed PDF library book so I could read it on my Kindle. I'm reading it now and will delete it when I'm done. I feel that I'm keeping within the spirit of the rule if not the letter. If I didn't read it for a few weeks I would be stretching that rule even further. I might still be comfortable with that but there's one thing I would want to know first. How does my library pay Overdrive for these books? Is it some sort of flat fee for the service or do they pay for each book I borrow? If they pay for each book and I end up downloading more books than I would normally with the idea that I will read them later, then they would end up paying more than they should if I end up not reading some of the books I borrow.
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Old 03-01-2009, 03:31 PM   #89
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Unfortunately no libraries in my state offer OverDrive ebooks so I need to borrow a friend's library number. But yes, if you sign up with a library you should abide by their rules. And that would probably include not removing the DRM in the first place.
I wonder if that puts your friend in violation of their agreement. After all, you're not paying any taxes to support that library yet you are using their collection.
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Old 03-01-2009, 03:35 PM   #90
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I wonder if that puts your friend in violation of their agreement. After all, you're not paying any taxes to support that library yet you are using their collection.
[sarcasm mode]
It's ok... no one gets hurt and no one will find out.

BOb
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