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Old 01-18-2009, 07:49 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llasram View Post
I was curious enough to try to drill down into the legal code involved. IANAL, but the US DMCA has this definition:



I'm not sure an open specification meets that standard, as there is no chain of trust necessitating "the authority of the copyright owner" in order to unlock the work.
Isn't a key/password supplied by the book seller/publisher "authority of the copyright owner"?
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Old 01-18-2009, 07:50 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by darkmonk View Post
I don't see why this would be any different then any other encryption scheme. I mean really, slap some 128bit AES encryption on the file that can only be decrypted with the key. Is any other scheme any different? Just standardize it! 128bit is still not going to be cracked by anything short of a supercomputer!
DRM-using publisher: Enjoy your book!

E-book reader: It looks good. Hey, can I give it to my friend after I read it?

Publisher: Nope. In fact, we've encrypted it to stop you from doing that.

Reader: Oh. But if it's encrypted, then how am I going to read it?

Publisher: Oh, no need to worry -- we've given you the key too.

Reader: Er. Ok. Then what's to stop me from giving it to my friend?

Publisher: Because it's encry.... Um. Let me get back to you on that.
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Old 01-18-2009, 07:56 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by kovidgoyal View Post
Isn't a key/password supplied by the book seller/publisher "authority of the copyright owner"?
Like I said, I'm not a lawyer, but I have a hard time seeing it work that way... If the specification is open, then software which consumes the key + encrypted work can do anything. There's no chain of authority via which the copyright owner grants only specific rights the software is supposed to enforce.

Is there a lawyer in the house?
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Old 01-18-2009, 11:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel View Post
natively is not the only way to support it though : mobipocket (and therefore amazon, who owns mobipocket) actually does already support (drm-free) epub, in the sense that the mobipocket desktop reader will already convert it to mobi format (if you have the mobi destop reader installed, double-clicking any epub file will automatically launch the conversion, and when it's done it will be displayed in the reader), effectively making any mobipocket-capable device an epub-capable device. (all you kindlers : you can read epub books on your kindle ! and it's probably the most painless conversion of all of them !)
I hadn't come across this information before, so I tried it out to confirm. Zigzags of Treachery by Hammett wouldn't open in the desktop reader, but The Picture of Dorian Gray opened just fine. Something I'm not understanding about this format?

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Old 01-19-2009, 01:16 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Strether View Post
Zigzags of Treachery by Hammett wouldn't open in the desktop reader, but The Picture of Dorian Gray opened just fine.
MobiPocket's ePub to MOBI isn't very robust. Some ePubs are essentially OEBs, i.e. based on the same source format as LIT and MOBI, and these convert ok. Any ePub that uses new features of the format are likely to either fail or produce sub-optimal results. Part of this is due to features lacking in the MOBI format, but part is due to relatively little work being put into ePub conversion by MobiPocket. There is nothing we can do about the former, but llasram is working on an any2mobi for Calibre which should eventually (i.e. after extensive testing and refining) do as good a job as possible with ePub to MOBI conversion. See Mobipocket output, and this beta release of any2epub seems to work ok on Zigzags of Treachery.
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Old 01-19-2009, 05:01 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel View Post
Harry, you are right that DRM is a big problem, however as i've said countless times before, it's not limited to the ePub format and it's really not constructive to mix the two issues, particularly as there are already major publishers selling completely DRM-free ePub books (PanMacMillan, for example).

DRM is a problem but it is it's own problem, and as you would have seen if you had read the previous posts in this thread, i am talking about drm-free epub, that is, the format itself.
I have read the thread. DRM is a part of the ePub standard, and if we're going to discuss the standard we cannot simply ignore it.

The "bolt on your own DRM method" feature of ePub is unique to that standard (unless you know of another format which has this feature?), and raises important issues which don't arise with other eBook formats. We need to discuss as a part of the overall discussion of ePub. We can't simply sweep it under the carpet and pretend that it doesn't exist.

One issue, for example, that needs to be considered is whether or not a firmware creator is going to be permitted to support multiple ePub DRM methods. If not, this will mean that devices will only be able to read a subset of eBooks which conform to the standard - a situation which doesn't arise for any other format.
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Old 01-19-2009, 04:16 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
The "bolt on your own DRM method" feature of ePub is unique to that standard (unless you know of another format which has this feature?).
The PDF specification (since about 1.3) allows for multiple security handlers. This is exactly equivalent to encryption handlers for ePub.
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:04 PM   #38
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hi,
I just took a peek at this article, but time does not permit me to read all replies.
Therefor, I may ask a question already asked:
What does epub have that lrf does not have?

It's compressed, and displays Bold, underline, italic and Intended text.
It displays pictures upto a certain resolution perfectly, without rendering, and it uses bookmarks and internal hyperlinks.

I only speak from my experience with the PRS-505 from Sony and the LRF format,which show some issues of placing a picture on the left,right or middle of a text is not possible(unless one splits up the paragraph)
Hi-res pictures will be rendered in LRf files, making it impossible to see small details on large resolution files (eg:see the text of a comic book with pictures of resolutions greater than 1200x1000 pixels. (the numbers used here are to illustrate and do not display the true resolution limits)).

I know the LRF format generally only supports 3 fonttypes, and about 11 fontsizes per LRF. The PRS-505 is limited to zoom those fonts to only 3 different sizes, but one LRF I've discovered (so far), can host 11 different fontsizes.

This so far is my experience with LRF, and the limitations there of.

So, What does epub offer that LRF does not have?
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:14 PM   #39
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What does epub have that lrf does not have?
Much better CSS support, for one thing (e.g. border). Also, HTML2LRF does not handle e.g. nested selectors.
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:22 PM   #40
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ProDigit, if you are interested in epub, i highly recommend you read at least the first page of this thread, which gives a lot of information about epub.

to answer your question briefly, to start with, epub is an open format and an industry standard. those are two things which the lrf format does not offer.
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Old 01-20-2009, 02:43 PM   #41
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So, What does epub offer that LRF does not have?
As zelda_pinwheel said, the main super-big-untrumpable thing is being an open standard.

As far as formatting features go, it has a fair number of quirks. The biggest limitation is that it's fundamentally pixel-oriented -- almost every measure in the book is expressed in terms of screen-pixels, which makes real reflowability to arbitrarily sized screens a lie. This also means nothing can be scaled with font-size, including images. The BBeB block model is much simpler than CSS's, which means no generic floating blocks for text-wrapping around anything other than images, no inline blocks, and reduced support for arranging sequences of blocks (useful for poetry). The way vertical block margins are used is less-than-desirable, duplicating the entire margin of a block which crosses multiple pages on each page. Left and right horizontal margins may not be specified separately, but only as a single "side margin." BBeB completely lacks any support for vector graphics, which EPUB has via SVG.

I'm sure there's more, but I haven't looked at BBeB for a while.
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Old 01-20-2009, 03:00 PM   #42
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LRF also has not support for tables, and inline anchors (which means you cant have links to the middle of a large paragraph of text). Also no support for a hierarchical TOC
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Old 01-20-2009, 03:55 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by darkmonk View Post
I don't see why this would be any different then any other encryption scheme. I mean really, slap some 128bit AES encryption on the file that can only be decrypted with the key. Is any other scheme any different? Just standardize it! 128bit is still not going to be cracked by anything short of a supercomputer!
Or, it's not going to be easily cracked by any home computer; BUT the gamingcomputer running 2 graphics cards in SLI,with Cuda installed.
A Russian site already promotes it's program to crack any WPA in a matter of seconds, using graphic cards as processing power.

Even online banking recently made a swap to 1024bit encryption; and even then,it's just a matter of recording the signal and processing it to get the passwords cracked over time,I suppose...

The russian site said their program could crack codes on a normal home pc about 75%as fast as a Tesla super computer...
I just get this from reading online;not speaking from experience here.

So even if they used 128bit encryption, it'd just need some time to run the decrypter.
Especially when we're entering an age where computers became 10xfaster over the past 5 years.

Last edited by ProDigit; 01-20-2009 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 01-20-2009, 05:07 PM   #44
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BUT the gamingcomputer running 2 graphics cards in SLI,with Cuda installed.
A Russian site already promotes it's program to crack any WPA in a matter of seconds, using graphic cards as processing power.

Even online banking recently made a swap to 1024bit encryption; and even then,it's just a matter of recording the signal and processing it to get the passwords cracked over time,I suppose...
Please do not comment on something you have no idea about:

1) Symmetric ciphers with 128bit keys are unbreakable by brute force and unless a major breakthrough (such as working quantum computers) is made, will remain unbreakable - possibly forever. Symmetric ciphers with 256bit keys will never get broken using brute force. There is not enough energy in the universe to do it, not enough time to wait for it.

2) What can (and occasionally does) happen is a break in the cipher algorithm itself. Given the amount of research into AES (and given the fact that even DES, almost 40 years old, is still not broken), I wouldn't hold my breath. It is usually the various side channels that get broken (e.g. the key exchange mechanism in case of WPA).

3) Online banking has exactly nothing to do with it: Key lengths in symmetric and assymetric ciphers are not easily comparable to each other; generally, you need perhaps 10 or more times longer keys for assymetric ciphers than for symmetric ciphers to achieve similar level of security.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:26 PM   #45
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Yea, .. whatever ...
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