Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book Formats > ePub

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-23-2014, 08:02 AM   #1
hardbound
Junior Member
hardbound began at the beginning.
 
Posts: 3
Karma: 10
Join Date: May 2014
Device: none
Using italic and bold instead of emphasis and strong

Are there any cases when plain old <i> and <b> should be used instead of em and strong?
hardbound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 08:41 AM   #2
mrmikel
Color me gone
mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,086
Karma: 1444487
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Central Oregon Coast
Device: PRS-300
This is the old presentation vs structure argument. The new fangled ones show where things should be emphasized or strong. The old ones do exactly what they do. You can not be guaranteed that sometime in the future that green frills with polka dots will come into vogue for strong or emphasized!
mrmikel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 09:07 AM   #3
Toxaris
Wizard
Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Toxaris ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Toxaris's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,182
Karma: 7180223
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Heemskerk, NL
Device: PRS-300, PRS-T1
I only use <i> and <b>, since I find that <em> and <strong> are describing what the content is and that is not always the same as the effect I want. To me the fact that <em> is presented in italic is coincidence... I am all for describing the content (like p for paragraph, etc), but then I would also need tags like <thought>, <foreign>, etc to catch all the use cases for <i>, <b>, etc
Toxaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 10:00 AM   #4
Abekonge
Scripler Project Lead
Abekonge has met Morla.Abekonge has met Morla.Abekonge has met Morla.Abekonge has met Morla.Abekonge has met Morla.Abekonge has met Morla.Abekonge has met Morla.Abekonge has met Morla.Abekonge has met Morla.Abekonge has met Morla.Abekonge has met Morla.
 
Abekonge's Avatar
 
Posts: 10
Karma: 19304
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark.
Device: Gameboy Color
I use <em> and <strong> BUT i do define them in css just so everyone knows what I mean.

Code:
em {font-style:italic;}
strong {font-weight:bold;}
or whatever is appropiate according to the @font rules.
Abekonge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 10:44 AM   #5
hardbound
Junior Member
hardbound began at the beginning.
 
Posts: 3
Karma: 10
Join Date: May 2014
Device: none
OK, but can you give some examples of the difference?
Bold and strong are basically interchangeable because bold's only function in body text (traditional typography) is to give strong emphasis. Italic, on the other hand, is used both for emphasis and for orthographic conventions (titles, foreign words).

But isn't the main point of emphasis to offer cues for text-to-speech engine? If yes, then should it also emphasise things like titles for easier understanding?

Isn't there some original specification that explains the reasons behind their introduction?
hardbound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 10:50 AM   #6
mrmikel
Color me gone
mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,086
Karma: 1444487
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Central Oregon Coast
Device: PRS-300
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardbound View Post
Isn't there some original specification that explains the reasons behind their introduction?
Maybe because they were issued by a committee of academics?
mrmikel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 11:38 AM   #7
Jellby
frumious Bandersnatch
Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Jellby's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,315
Karma: 4963983
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spaniard in Sweden
Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardbound View Post
Isn't there some original specification that explains the reasons behind their introduction?
<i> is intended to be italic, for whatever reason.
<em> is intended to be emphasized, in whichever way.

Usually, italic words are italic because they are emphasized, and emphasized words are displayed in italics, so the defaults are the same and they are mostly interchangeable.

Still, there are situations where <em> is not necessarily italic: in typewriter style it could be underlined, in text-to-speech it's definitely not italic (would it be read with an Italian accent or what?).

There is no real danger in using <i> and <b> instead of <em> and <strong>, provided the accompanying CSS is correct. In fact, you could even use <code>, <pre> or <span>, if you modify the default styles, but that would be akin to obfuscating your code.
Jellby is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 11:47 AM   #8
BobC
Addict
BobC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BobC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BobC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BobC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BobC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BobC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BobC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BobC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BobC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BobC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BobC ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 354
Karma: 245756
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lancashire, U.K.
Device: BeBook 1, BeBook Pure, Kobo Glo, Various Android Apps
My thoughts on this are that if you are making an EPUB book from an original printed version then what you see on the original page is either italic or bold, not the concept of strong or emphasis. You might guess why the author chose one form or typeface and you might be right.

On the other hand if you are starting from a clean sheet and are the author of the book then you are in a position to know why you want something in italics, bold or even underlined and can use the semantic approach.

The idea of disconnecting the meaning from the presentation is a good one - it allows for an ebook to be read by say a text-to-speech engine or a braille reader (though this might not be the best example after looking at http://www.brailleauthority.org/form...formats05.html ) but think about it - some readers will render <em> in bold, others in italic; if you want the names of say ships to show up in italics the only sure way is to use <i> (or use css font-style) that way you either get italic or no formatting if the reader doesn't support it.

BobC
BobC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 11:52 AM   #9
hardbound
Junior Member
hardbound began at the beginning.
 
Posts: 3
Karma: 10
Join Date: May 2014
Device: none
So if I use <em> and <strong>, I must describe them in CSS, unlike <i> and <b>?
hardbound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 12:39 PM   #10
mrmikel
Color me gone
mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,086
Karma: 1444487
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Central Oregon Coast
Device: PRS-300
If you want predictability you have to.
mrmikel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 01:18 PM   #11
odedta
Addict
odedta knows how to set a laser printer to stun.odedta knows how to set a laser printer to stun.odedta knows how to set a laser printer to stun.odedta knows how to set a laser printer to stun.odedta knows how to set a laser printer to stun.odedta knows how to set a laser printer to stun.odedta knows how to set a laser printer to stun.odedta knows how to set a laser printer to stun.odedta knows how to set a laser printer to stun.odedta knows how to set a laser printer to stun.odedta knows how to set a laser printer to stun.
 
Posts: 306
Karma: 95952
Join Date: Dec 2013
Device: iPad
According to the HTML 5 specification, the <b> tag should be used as a LAST resort when no other tag is more appropriate. The HTML 5 specification states that headings should be denoted with the <h1> to <h6> tags, emphasized text should be denoted with the <em> tag, important text should be denoted with the <strong> tag, and marked/highlighted text should use the <mark> tag.

One more fact is that old browsers don't know <strong> and <em>, so basically to be backwards compatible you should use <b> and <i>

Last edited by odedta; 05-23-2014 at 03:47 PM.
odedta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 07:15 PM   #12
eschwartz
Irrational Optimist
eschwartz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.eschwartz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.eschwartz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.eschwartz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.eschwartz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.eschwartz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.eschwartz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.eschwartz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.eschwartz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.eschwartz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.eschwartz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
eschwartz's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,312
Karma: 14762383
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity
Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)
Quote:
Originally Posted by odedta View Post
One more fact is that old browsers don't know <strong> and <em>, so basically to be backwards compatible you should use <b> and <i>
Old browsers don't understand a lot of things. To be truly backwards compatible would require staying in the 1990's, technology-wise. The solution is much more simple -- install/upgrade any one of the 3 major (free) browsers.

Anyway, what matters more is if any ereaders don't support <strong> and <em>.
eschwartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2014, 08:20 AM   #13
mrmikel
Color me gone
mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,086
Karma: 1444487
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Central Oregon Coast
Device: PRS-300
There seems to be a misunderstanding here that html for browsers equals epub for reading devices. They are NOT the same. Epub2 which is what most devices support includes only a subset of HTML and not HTML5 at all.

An example that pops up immediately just copying web pages is name. Name is not valid in epubs, id is what is used.

What an apple device supports particularly is not the same as what nearly all other devices support. And Hitch, a frequent poster here, and a professional epub maker, has pointed out the Apple's share of the epub market is quite small, so it takes some doing to find out what most devices support most of the time.
mrmikel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
iPad "Upgraded" to iBooks 3.2 – Bold fonts are extra-bold, italics are now bold-italic MHC Apple Devices 4 03-03-2014 02:50 PM
The bold and italic buttons on the bar Artha Sigil 15 12-04-2011 05:52 PM
Italic or Emphasis John2011 ePub 18 08-18-2011 01:14 PM
italic, bold etc to normal cybmole Sigil 11 03-04-2011 11:37 AM
Emphasis or Italic for Language ghostyjack Workshop 3 11-02-2010 11:46 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:56 PM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.