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Old 03-06-2014, 09:52 AM   #151
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:53 AM   #152
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And who manufactured the PCs?
PC Manufacturers... probably a better effort than a candy floss maker (but that's open to debate)...
But to satisfy your wonderful curiosity, one was a Vaio, one was a Dell and the last one an Acer... and then I couldn't be bothered as a separate PC became irrelevant...
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:30 PM   #153
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Yes... 2003 Mac in daily use... works fine, runs last non-Intel version of OS X fine, MSO, LibreOffice, CS, Mail etc together with external drives, printer (brand new multi-function), wi-fi, broadband etc... and why would I need to remeber the name of the OS when I know the version which is much more accurate...
........ and of course you can let us know all about the many current PCs supporting SCSI, UltraScsi, Firewire and many other past standards... non-Apple PC manufacturers are just as good at dumping older standards for connectivity (and anything else they fancy)...
Thanks for making my point. You confirmed that any support for your Mac ceased years ago, while XP was supported right until now. Firewire was almost exclusively pushed by Apple and SCSI was very much promoted by Apple as well - and both standards were quickly abandoned, while the very much PC standard USB is compatible all the way from 1.1 to 3.
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Old 03-06-2014, 02:07 PM   #154
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Thanks for making my point. You confirmed that any support for your Mac ceased years ago, while XP was supported right until now. Firewire was almost exclusively pushed by Apple and SCSI was very much promoted by Apple as well - and both standards were quickly abandoned, while the very much PC standard USB is compatible all the way from 1.1 to 3.
Obviously blind as well - last non-Intel OS doesn't mean it didn't continue to get supported because it did... just like Win XP doesn't mean last version that only required a piece of toast to run on rather than a real computer...

I suppose that you never noticed the funny shaped socket on PCs (Firewire) and all the weird sockets that took SCSI on PCs as well, not too mention things like removable caddies (SCSI) exclusively for PCs etc and I guess you must have blinked or maybe been too young to have noticed SCSI being around for many, many years and certainly not short-lived... and why you'd be paying 50 Euros for a converter??? Try eBay/Amazon/Google for lots of USB/Firewire adapters designed to allow Firewire use on machines with USB but no Firewire...
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Old 03-06-2014, 03:26 PM   #155
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Sorry to jump in again, but I had a camcorder that could DV out to Firewire so I did a ton of research at the time... Apple owned the intellectual property to Firewire and refused to share with anyone so my camcorder could connect to Macs and Firewire cards made with Apple's blessing and not to Firewire shaped ports that were built into PCs who had hopes of being able to obtain drivers for them but weren't allowed to.

I am surprised that Firewire is being called a "standard" since it is proprietary. All this time I had equated "standard" with "open". Live and learn.
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Old 03-06-2014, 03:37 PM   #156
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I am surprised that Firewire is being called a "standard" since it is proprietary. All this time I had equated "standard" with "open". Live and learn.
That's never been true, so far as I can tell. A HUGE number of tech standards are proprietary, and open IP in mainstream commercial products is still the exception rather than the rule.
Note, the standards involved could be proprietary and still be available to use at no cost. This does happen.
The more typical model, though, has been to work to get a standard accepted and hope to get rich collecting license fees. Think DVD, MP3, Ethernet, PDF (later became free and open) for example.

Regarding Firewire in particular, I don't know the history, but it apparently changed from what you describe at some-point, because most Firewire devices are interoperable between mac and pc.

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Old 03-06-2014, 04:23 PM   #157
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Sorry to jump in again, but I had a camcorder that could DV out to Firewire so I did a ton of research at the time... Apple owned the intellectual property to Firewire and refused to share with anyone so my camcorder could connect to Macs and Firewire cards made with Apple's blessing and not to Firewire shaped ports that were built into PCs who had hopes of being able to obtain drivers for them but weren't allowed to.

I am surprised that Firewire is being called a "standard" since it is proprietary. All this time I had equated "standard" with "open". Live and learn.
And equally I used a DV camcorder that plugged and worked in either PC or Mac... often depends on individual manufacturers' precise approach to matching "standards" so one brand works and another doesn't...
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Old 03-07-2014, 02:36 AM   #158
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Obviously blind as well - last non-Intel OS doesn't mean it didn't continue to get supported because it did...
Oh, really? How long? For two years? When all is said and done support for an operating system you bought after the release of XP ended much earlier.

Just BTW, putting into every single post doesn't make them any wittier.

Last edited by CommonReader; 03-07-2014 at 03:19 AM.
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Old 03-07-2014, 07:56 AM   #159
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Apple lacks the market penetration of MS and Android. Under Jobs, Apple was an innovator at the front of the wave. More and more, we will see apple lose that edge. Really, it's already lost it. It isn't producing any hardware or software that other companies aren't emulating. And it charges more. Admittedly it's hardware is of a slightly higher quality, but the user pays for that with extra $. Add to that that the Apple OS is in a minority and famously doesn't get on with the greater outside-world of other OSes, and the conveniences become inconveniences. Ultimately, Apple excels where the user doesn't need to understand the device, but only to use it. See ipad and iphone.

I think the MS / Apple race is about compatibility and to what depth the user wishes to go with the system. My perspective is biased because I am a relatively knowledgeable user who likes bang for my buck. So I use MS and Android. If money is not an issue and you don't understand computers and you like shiny things, Apple is for you.

Apple could have done well here, if they'd competed on price. Take a teenager who wants to use facebook on a shiny tablet. Ooh, the ipad is pretty, but look, that Android tablet which is nearly as nice is also nearly half the price. Guess what...

And remember, prior to the release of the iphone and ipad, the Apple laptop was a marginal device swamped by MS devices. Apple innovated and jumped ahead, for awhile. Kudos to Apple for producing the first practical tablet. But that's done. I don't see where else they can innovate in hardware, other than to make it shinier.

Ultimately Apple is incompatible with the rest of the world, and the world ain't gonna change to get on with Apple. I know developers who love their sexy Apple hardware, yet more and more they turn to a laptop because Apple just doesn't play well with so much other tech.

Last edited by Rizla; 03-07-2014 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 03-07-2014, 08:44 AM   #160
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Oh, really? How long? For two years? When all is said and done support for an operating system you bought after the release of XP ended much earlier.

Just BTW, putting into every single post doesn't make them any wittier.
Last update received a few weeks ago... wow massive difference between Win XP and OS X support...

Just BTW doesn't always mean witty, it also means what it says: Laughing at someone, their comments, ideas or general post...
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Old 03-07-2014, 10:17 AM   #161
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Add to that that the Apple OS is in a minority and famously doesn't get on with the greater outside-world of other OSes, and the conveniences become inconveniences.
OSX is indeed a minority, but can you clarify what you mean by the doesn't-get-on-with-other-OSes bit?

I use a mix of many OSes in my day-to-day work and I've never found OSX to be particularly troublesome in that regard. In fact, as it's a proper Unix, I've generally found it plays better with a broad range of OSes than, say, Windows does.

/JB
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Old 03-07-2014, 12:52 PM   #162
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Apple lacks the market penetration of MS and Android. Under Jobs, Apple was an innovator at the front of the wave. More and more, we will see apple lose that edge. Really, it's already lost it. It isn't producing any hardware or software that other companies aren't emulating. And it charges more. Admittedly it's hardware is of a slightly higher quality, but the user pays for that with extra $. Add to that that the Apple OS is in a minority and famously doesn't get on with the greater outside-world of other OSes, and the conveniences become inconveniences. Ultimately, Apple excels where the user doesn't need to understand the device, but only to use it. See ipad and iphone.

I think the MS / Apple race is about compatibility and to what depth the user wishes to go with the system. My perspective is biased because I am a relatively knowledgeable user who likes bang for my buck. So I use MS and Android. If money is not an issue and you don't understand computers and you like shiny things, Apple is for you.

Apple could have done well here, if they'd competed on price. Take a teenager who wants to use facebook on a shiny tablet. Ooh, the ipad is pretty, but look, that Android tablet which is nearly as nice is also nearly half the price. Guess what...

And remember, prior to the release of the iphone and ipad, the Apple laptop was a marginal device swamped by MS devices. Apple innovated and jumped ahead, for awhile. Kudos to Apple for producing the first practical tablet. But that's done. I don't see where else they can innovate in hardware, other than to make it shinier.

Ultimately Apple is incompatible with the rest of the world, and the world ain't gonna change to get on with Apple. I know developers who love their sexy Apple hardware, yet more and more they turn to a laptop because Apple just doesn't play well with so much other tech.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. It is not a race because the companies are playing different games.

The situation with the iPhone and the iPad was not innovation, it was marketing. MS and Android make hardware as well but they make OSs that would be used on devices made by other manufacturers. They can't do what Jobs did and say that only one device is perfect because that is not in line with their marketing direction.

Also if you are comparing hardware say the name of the manufacturer of the device, not the name of the company that made the OS.
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Old 03-07-2014, 03:05 PM   #163
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I'm not trying to convince you of my point of view, I just think that you made wrong assumptions regarding what that point is.

The creative people don't need Jobs, or someone like him, companies do.
Clearly you're trying to convince someone of your POV or you wouldn't need to insist that you're right and I'm wrong.

You seem to be making the same technical (and apparently moral) argument as jazz buffs who insist that Billie Strayhorn didn't need Duke Ellington. Since Strayhorn was the better songwriter and arranger, they reason, it was Ellington who needed him and never the other way around.

If so, then it's strange that Strayhorn did so little on his own when given the tenth of a chance.

The symbiosis between the gifted specialists and goal-driven catalysts is often more jaded and codependent than it appears from the outside. Some people need to be motivated, pressured, goaded and/or galvanized; in the dawn of Silicon Valley, that frequently meant all-nighters with a pneumatic megalomaniac.

As a studio musician, I've encountered innumerable gifted players who seemed better than the bands they played in or production teams they supported until the bands and teams broke up and the members settled into doing what came too easily.

Some of the producers who drove me bonkers in the studio were the ones who badgered me into doing something unique. They were the ones I fought with most but inspired work that made me proudest.

I get the feeling that working with Jobs might have been like that: Exhilarating and/or infuriating and you didn't know which to expect.

Last edited by Prestidigitweeze; 03-07-2014 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 03-07-2014, 05:16 PM   #164
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I will say this, I have never owned an iToy, I'm a tinkerer. I actually enjoy getting under the hood in Windows. I will also say that I have never encountered a product on the Windows/Android side that is as well thought out, has the supreme build quality and elegant design as Apple products. I'm however also someone who is extremely annoyed by their decision to go with proprietary connectors for everything. Forget a cable and you can't just drop into a 7-11 and pick up something in a hurry. You need to order it and wait for its arrival.

With Jobs departure I see Apple moving away from the philosophy that made them a truly unique company. Whether true or not I have no idea, but according to a friend of mine who is the biggest Apple fanboi you'll ever encounter, Cook and Jony Ive doesn't get along the way Jobs and Ive did. Just the mere fact that this sort of perception is out there, seems to put a hamper on many Apple fans, these days they are a lot more nervous than enthusiastic, and that doesn't bode well over the long run.
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Old 03-07-2014, 05:22 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze View Post
Clearly you're trying to convince someone of your POV or you wouldn't need to insist that you're right and I'm wrong.

You seem to be making the same technical (and apparently moral) argument as jazz buffs who insist that Billie Strayhorn didn't need Duke Ellington. Since Strayhorn was the better songwriter and arranger, they reason, it was Ellington who needed him and never the other way around.

If so, then it's strange that Strayhorn did so little on his own when given the tenth of a chance.

The symbiosis between the gifted specialists and goal-driven catalysts is often more jaded and codependent than it appears from the outside. Some people need to be motivated, pressured, goaded and/or galvanized; in the dawn of Silicon Valley, that frequently meant all-nighters with a pneumatic megalomaniac.

As a studio musician, I've encountered innumerable gifted players who seemed better than the bands they played in or production teams they supported until the bands and teams broke up and the members settled into doing what came too easily.

Some of the producers who drove me bonkers in the studio were the ones who badgered me into doing something unique. They were the ones I fought with most but inspired work that made me proudest.

I get the feeling that working with Jobs might have been like that: Exhilarating and/or infuriating and you didn't know which to expect.
Well since Strayhorn in his role as an arranger would be Jobs in this analogy, him doing "so little on his own when given the tenth of a chance" would prove my point.
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