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View Poll Results: Do you prefer iOS 7 over the "classic" iOS look?
Yes, iOS 7 looks better 27 19.57%
No, I preferred the previous iOS look & feel 69 50.00%
I'm fine with both; it's natural/acceptable evolution 42 30.43%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-08-2013, 11:57 AM   #166
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Those can only be low-income countries; the credit for that must go to Apple for over-pricing their products, not to W8 overtaking them. In countries where low price is the deciding factor, Android is already dominating and will continue to dominate. In many such countries, a person's monthly income may be lower than the price of an iPhone or iPad, so it's not surprising to see Apple struggle there.
Actually, WP is poised to overtake Apple in Germany as well. Yes, much of WP's success has to do with low and mid-range devices. But it doesn't have to do with the wealth of the countries. And the reason these low-to-mid range phones are having success is not because they are cheap, after all Android rules that market. It's because the Nokia 520 and 620 are the best devices in their price range. Something that Google seems to be reacting to by reducing resource requirements in KitKat.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:34 PM   #167
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Erm, what? I trust you're not referring to the notoriously lame Internet Explorer. Superb iOS browsers like Atomic Web Browser do not lag behind desktop browsers in any way I have noticed. But even the best browser is no substitute for missing apps. Plus, given Microsoft's reputation of producing buggy software, I don't see many people willing to expose themselves to all of that on a mobile device. If those devices were distributed for free... perhaps. But for hundreds of dollars per device... hopeless for MS, I'm afraid.
Have you even used IE10 and IE11? Or are you once again making assumptions? Please do tell what you don't like about them. Like anything they aren't perfect, but every site I go to works as intended. Videos, games, etc. To that end, so does everything I plug into my Surface. Printers, mice, TVs, drives, etc. No apps or proprietary adapters required.

The rest of your post is pure opinion. For me, for example, the web version of Facebook works better than any Facebook app I've ever used on any platform. Things like watch ESPN and other streaming sites work just fine, as does my banking site. Why install apps you don't need?

You know, I don't like sounding like a fanboy. I have owned iDevices in the past and my next phone will remain Android. They all have their pros and cons. I just don't get why some people refuse to believe facts. Microsoft is still a very profitable and capable company putting together a compelling ecosystem that will be a large force in mobile. They have made it clear they aren't going anywhere and they have the resources and sales channels to back up that talk. If you don't believe it, you haven't paid attention to their history.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:37 PM   #168
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Those can only be low-income countries; the credit for that must go to Apple for over-pricing their products, not to W8 overtaking them...
Low income countries such as Germany?
Here Windows mobile recently has taken over.
But then again, it's something like:
8% iOS, 9% Windows mobile, >70% Android (or something that magnitude).
Samsung alone (for whatever reason extremely popular in Germany) sells more units here than iOS and Windows combined.
BTW: Personally, I don't have an Android phone anymore. And I'll wait (if ever) with replacing my iPhone4S (don't like the touch and feel of iPhone5 anyway).
I'm fine with my Nokia Lumia 920.
But frankly, in my opinion it's just marginal details, no biggies.
Biggest plus of Android for me: Exchangeable keyboards. Swype beats them all.
Biggest plus of iOS: Magnitude of apps. But personally I don't care about that on smartphones. I focus solely on productivity - and here iOS has lots of weaknesses.

Last edited by mgmueller; 11-08-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:54 PM   #169
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Please do tell what you don't like about them.
Internet Explorer is dumb and lame, as ever. The first prerequisite I demand of any desktop browser: ability to customise keyboard shortcuts. If a desktop browser doesn't have that, it's worthless for me. Of course IE doesn't have that; that feature would be too smart for it.

My default desktop browser since the 1990s has been Opera. Beware: Opera on mobile devices (including its newest iteration, Coast) is trash; its real counterparts on iOS, in terms of smartness, are browsers like Atomic Web Browser, Mercury or Dolphin.

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Microsoft is still a very profitable and capable company putting together a compelling ecosystem that will be a large force in mobile.
Wishful thinking!

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If you don't believe it, you haven't paid attention to their history.
History guarantees nothing, my friend. Just look at the glorious history of Nokia or BlackBerry. Where are they today? In tatters.

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Biggest plus of iOS: Magnitude of apps. But personally I don't care about that on smartphones. I focus solely on productivity - and here iOS has lots of weaknesses.
I disagree; I have found all productivity apps on iOS that I need. But I have not found them on Android.

The biggest weakness of iOS, to me, is the one you alluded to: inability to customise keyboard layouts. That, along with user profiles, is what I would have appreciated getting as part of iOS 7 -- instead of the trashy cosmetics.
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:20 PM   #170
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Erm, what? I trust you're not referring to the notoriously lame Internet Explorer. Superb iOS browsers like Atomic Web Browser do not lag behind desktop browsers in any way I have noticed. But even the best browser is no substitute for missing apps. Plus, given Microsoft's reputation of producing buggy software, I don't see many people willing to expose themselves to all of that on a mobile device. If those devices were distributed for free... perhaps. But for hundreds of dollars per device... hopeless for MS, I'm afraid.
The RT version of IE11 is excellent for a tablet experience in that it offers access to the full version of websites whereas other tablets rely on apps which do little more than reformat a subset of the content of that particular site.

So, no need for a special Facebook app, simply use IE11 (Metro or desktop version) to access the site. Same for Twitter, and other social media sites, or forums. That helps to reduce the need for single-purpose apps.

The browser solution is perfectly fine (and sometimes perferred) vs dedicated apps.

Having said that, there are still many, many apps that are needed or that exist but need to be improved.
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:36 PM   #171
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Apps are not at the level of Google or Apple. But the big basics that most people need are there, and having a pc-level browser helps greatly with what isn't. My point is that I think they have done well given the timeframe and with the large install base there is no reason to think it won't continue to improve.
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Erm, what? I trust you're not referring to the notoriously lame Internet Explorer. Superb iOS browsers like Atomic Web Browser do not lag behind desktop browsers in any way I have noticed. But even the best browser is no substitute for missing apps. Plus, given Microsoft's reputation of producing buggy software, I don't see many people willing to expose themselves to all of that on a mobile device. If those devices were distributed for free... perhaps. But for hundreds of dollars per device... hopeless for MS, I'm afraid.
Well, it's mostly IE7 & 8 that are completely irredeemably unusable. Microsoft did a fairly god job of playing catch-up in IE 10 & 11, now they have finally improved till they only stink at offering useful features, intuitive UI, and correctly implemented rendering, but for all that it no longer crashes just TRYING to view the modern web.

Which helps the overabundance of WinXP users not at all, of course. They've started using Chrome instead, and liked it so much, when they get Win7 they install it there too.

That's still no excuse for claiming that it's a PC-level browser of course. And on both Android and iOS you can get Firefox and Google Chrome, iOS also has Safari, and many other spinoffs and customized versions, and they all do a VERY good job, the only difference between the PC and mobile device versions is they use a layout optimized for smaller screens.
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:18 PM   #172
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The RT version of IE11 is excellent for a tablet experience in that it offers access to the full version of websites whereas other tablets rely on apps which do little more than reformat a subset of the content of that particular site.
Not true at all... Every advanced iOS browser (such as those I named, not the dumb Safari) allows you to display webpages in their "desktop layouts". No difference compared to the desktop browser. So you get both full-fledged websites and apps on iOS.

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they only stink at offering useful features, intuitive UI, and correctly implemented rendering
In other words, IE still stinks at the very basics of functionality. Safari is just as lame. But I wouldn't expect better of them -- they have traditionally been horrible browsers. Chrome is a lot better, but (as I feel it) not on a par with Opera (on desktop systems) or the likes of Atomic Web Browser, Mercury or Dolphin on iOS.

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Old 11-08-2013, 04:52 PM   #173
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Internet Explorer is dumb and lame, as ever. The first prerequisite I demand of any desktop browser: ability to customise keyboard shortcuts. If a desktop browser doesn't have that, it's worthless for me. Of course IE doesn't have that; that feature would be too smart for it.

My default desktop browser since the 1990s has been Opera. Beware: Opera on mobile devices (including its newest iteration, Coast) is trash; its real counterparts on iOS, in terms of smartness, are browsers like Atomic Web Browser, Mercury or Dolphin.


Wishful thinking!


History guarantees nothing, my friend. Just look at the glorious history of Nokia or BlackBerry. Where are they today? In tatters.


I disagree; I have found all productivity apps on iOS that I need. But I have not found them on Android.

The biggest weakness of iOS, to me, is the one you alluded to: inability to customise keyboard layouts. That, along with user profiles, is what I would have appreciated getting as part of iOS 7 -- instead of the trashy cosmetics.
You are all over the place here. Forgive me for not bothering to break it all out.

You discredit IE for desktop features as you compare it to iPad browsers. That's rather ridiculous, don't you think?

You dismiss all that Microsoft has put together with no reason given. The fact is they have perhaps the most complete and capable portfolio of anybody right now. I've brought that up already so I won't rehash it.

You compare Microsoft to Blackberry and Nokia. The fact is, those companies are not even close to what Microsoft is. Do you know who is most similar right now to those companies that had a limited portfolio and didn't keep their products up to date? You should.

You are correct in that history does not gaurantee anything. But I don't see why their money and business tactics can't revive them. Whether you want to admit it or not, they have a lot of great products out right now.

There is not a lot more to say. Again I apologize for continually responding to this on an iOS thread, but there were several misconceptions that needed to be cleared up. Since it has now devolved into personal preferences and speculation, I'll stop. After all, personal preference should be the basis for any decision and there's nothing wrong with that, so long as it is formed by facts rather than assumptions based on outdated information.
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Old 11-08-2013, 05:01 PM   #174
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Not true at all... Every advanced iOS browser (such as those I named, not the dumb Safari) allows you to display webpages in their "desktop layouts". No difference compared to the desktop browser. So you get both full-fledged websites and apps on iOS.



In other words, IE still stinks at the very basics of functionality. Safari is just as lame. But I wouldn't expect better of them -- they have traditionally been horrible browsers. Chrome is a lot better, but (as I feel it) not on a par with Opera (on desktop systems) or the likes of Atomic Web Browser, Mercury or Dolphin on iOS.
Well, at least Safari RENDERS properly, unlike Internet Explorer, which was merely upgraded to no longer totally crash.

I agree, though, that on the desktop Chrome and Firefox rule (never used Opera, though I hear it has many good features) and I prefer other browsers over Safari on iOS for the customization. Still, it gets the job done with a minimum of fuss. As is evidenced by the fact that all other browsers on iOS are (by Apple decree) nothing more than a skin on top of Safari's rendering engine. Lack of Nitro aside, the strength of all browser apps rests on the power of Apple's Webkit.
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Old 11-08-2013, 05:31 PM   #175
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You discredit IE for desktop features as you compare it to iPad browsers.
Not at all; you haven't read my posts carefully. I say Internet Explorer is a lousy, crude browser because it lacks functionality I consider to be crucial, such as the ability to customise keyboard shortcuts -- which is a feature offered by Opera, another desktop browser.

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You dismiss all that Microsoft has put together
Not at all; another misreading of yours. There are quite a few things for which I praise Microsoft; they just haven't been the subject of discussion in this thread. I said Microsoft had a reputation for producing buggy software, and that's true, unfortunately.

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The fact is they have perhaps the most complete and capable portfolio of anybody right now.
That is anything but a "fact". It's simply your opinion, but one that I find to be untenable. I find Windows 8 devices unusable for serious purposes at this point due to the lack of apps, so that Microsoft's offerings cannot be called "the most capable". It's really a horrendous exaggeration to say that; MS marketing department speak, if you will.

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Whether you want to admit it or not, they have a lot of great products out right now.
Sorry, I'm not aware of any. Your and my definitions of "great products" clearly differ, but that's fine. The last great MS product, I'd say, is Windows 7.

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never used Opera, though I hear it has many good features
The trouble is, the new Opera version is supposed to share Chrome's rendering engine, and therefore lose many of its previous features. I hope that's not true. I'm sticking with classic Opera.

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the strength of all browser apps rests on the power of Apple's Webkit.
Unfortunately, Apple's WebKit is buggy as well, which has consequences for iOS e-readers relying on WebKit's rendering engine. As an illustration of a WebKit deficiency, take the inability to easily highlight (select) words on a webpage across paragraph boundaries... there is this "paragraph snapping" that selects the entire paragraph instead, even if that was not your intention. No such problems with selecting/highlighting text on Android...
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:45 PM   #176
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...I find Windows 8 devices unusable for serious purposes at this point due to the lack of apps, so that Microsoft's offerings cannot be called "the most capable"....
Here I really have to defend my beloved Surface Pro(s).
I own dozens of tablets. But, before Surface Pro, all of them had been mere toys.
Yes, I loved iPad 1 in May 2010, when taking it with me on vacation, fresh out of the mail. Yes, the App Store was an evolution and you could spend days mindlessly stumbling around and testing thousands of apps (at one stage, I had about 11.000 apps in iTunes). But: I never have used my iPads productively. Okay, the occasional email of course and even some quick presentations.
But I never would have generated a presentation, OneNote draft or text on any iPad or Android unit.
I did so on my MacBook Air, when on the road.
Now, more and more often, I do so on Surface Pro.
What does Surface Pro offer, that can't be done on iOS or Android?
First of all, I find the type cover a stroke of genius. Yes, there have been various covers and/or keyboards for numerous tablets. But a.) most of them have been crappy bluetooth solutions. And b.) only few of them had been compact and usable enough, to be a valid replacement for a "full" keyboard.
The type cover isn't perfect (although the Gen2 cover brought lots of improvements), but close enough. Closest I have seen so far.
Second of all, I'm still using Outlook and the MS Office Suite. iWorks is equally functional and efficient. But only on MacBook Air, certainly not on iPad.
Of course, my MacBook Air is about as compact as my Surface Pro. So I easily can take it on a trip as well. But from time to time, the tablet functionality of Surface Pro comes quite handy. In addition to work, all I did on my MacBook Air was watching movies. Now, on Surface Pro, I basically do it all: Watching movies, playing some occasional games, reading magazines and newspapers, ...
Yes, the desktop on Windows 8 tablets is far from perfect. And switching from the tiles to the desktop back and forth is kind of a break in user experience. But still: The desktop offers so much more, than Android or iOS for now could dream of...
Would it not be for the (in my eye) ugly iOS7, I certainly would have bought iPad Air and the new iPad mini Retina. But solely as gadgets, never as tools of productivity.
Surface Pro and other Windows 8 tablets may seem a bit less elegant than iPads. But only because they offer way more features.
For example, I love jotting down my presentations in OneNote with the stylus. I even gave 2 presentations in handwritten notes - and the reaction of the audiences was great...

Re. "lack of apps": There are less games and such, no doubt. As a gadget, Windows 8 tablets can't compete (yet) with Android or iOS. But as working tools? Miles ahead...

Last edited by mgmueller; 11-08-2013 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:50 AM   #177
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I own dozens of tablets. But, before Surface Pro, all of them had been mere toys.
That is just your position, and that's fine. My position is different. It's a common cliché to call the iPad a "toy" and a "consumption device", and not a "productivity device", but to me, that has never been true. I started using the iPad 1 as a productivity device on Day 1 it went on sale back in 2010, and I've been using it as such to this day.

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But: I never have used my iPads productively.
That is you. Please do not conclude, based on the sample of your own person, that the entire world is just like you.

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What does Surface Pro offer, that can't be done on iOS or Android?
First of all, I find the type cover a stroke of genius.
I assure you that Logitech's Ultrathin iPad Keyboard Cover is at least an equal stroke of genius. Again, you seem to be judging something you may not be familiar with. That Logitech keyboard is designed so that when you put it together with the iPad, it looks like a single device.

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most of them have been crappy bluetooth solutions.
You seem to equal "bluetooth" with "crappy" keyboards. Sorry, not justified. Bluetooth keyboards like the one by Logitech work like a charm. Nothing crappy about them (as also shown by their pricetag). (By the way, all of the keyboards I use with my traditional computers are wireless, too; why would I use an other-than-wireless keyboard with an iPad? That wouldn't make sense.)

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Second of all, I'm still using Outlook and the MS Office Suite.
My commiseration on using Outlook. I for one no longer use that atrocious software. In fact, right there is one of the main reasons why iPad is for me a more productive device than Surface Pro could be: my primary e-mail software for almost a year now has been Mailbox, and it's only available on iOS.

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iWorks is equally functional and efficient.
Not good enough for me (as usual for Apple software). On iOS, I use DocsToGo to manage and edit my Office documents. It cooperates with MS Office on my traditional computers flawlessly; I keep editing (for example) the same Excel files on an everyday basis in both MS Office and DocsToGo, and it works perfectly.

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Re. "lack of apps": There are less games and such, no doubt. As a gadget, Windows 8 tablets can't compete (yet) with Android or iOS. But as working tools? Miles ahead...
Definitely not. Windows 8 is far, far behind iOS in productivity tools, too. And I mean tablet productivity tools, not traditional desktop software with desktop user interface, available on a tablet. Just to give one example: my PIM software is Toodledo. As an app, it's only available on iOS -- not even on Android, let alone Win 8. It can be used via the website, but that's an inferior solution on a tablet. And that's exactly where Windows 8 fails most (for now): lack of apps. And I'm not talking about games, but about productivity apps. What could be more important for productivity purposes than email software (Mailbox), PIM software (Toodledo), e-reader software (Marvin and GoodReader), etc. etc. etc.? None of these great apps are available on Windows 8, and their functional alternatives on that platform lag far behind the iOS apps in terms of quality and usability on a tablet.

Summary: good for you if you enjoy your Surface Pro. But, on the basis of a sample of one (your own person), please do not make conclusions about the suitability of iOS devices to serve as productivity tools.

Last edited by Faterson; 11-09-2013 at 02:26 AM.
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Old 11-09-2013, 07:54 AM   #178
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That is just your position, and that's fine. My position is different. It's a common cliché to call the iPad a "toy" and a "consumption device", and not a "productivity device", but to me, that has never been true. I started using the iPad 1 as a productivity device on Day 1 it went on sale back in 2010, and I've been using it as such to this day.


That is you. Please do not conclude, based on the sample of your own person, that the entire world is just like you.


I assure you that Logitech's Ultrathin iPad Keyboard Cover is at least an equal stroke of genius. Again, you seem to be judging something you may not be familiar with. That Logitech keyboard is designed so that when you put it together with the iPad, it looks like a single device.


You seem to equal "bluetooth" with "crappy" keyboards. Sorry, not justified. Bluetooth keyboards like the one by Logitech work like a charm. Nothing crappy about them (as also shown by their pricetag). (By the way, all of the keyboards I use with my traditional computers are wireless, too; why would I use an other-than-wireless keyboard with an iPad? That wouldn't make sense.)


My commiseration on using Outlook. I for one no longer use that atrocious software. In fact, right there is one of the main reasons why iPad is for me a more productive device than Surface Pro could be: my primary e-mail software for almost a year now has been Mailbox, and it's only available on iOS.


Not good enough for me (as usual for Apple software). On iOS, I use DocsToGo to manage and edit my Office documents. It cooperates with MS Office on my traditional computers flawlessly; I keep editing (for example) the same Excel files on an everyday basis in both MS Office and DocsToGo, and it works perfectly.


Definitely not. Windows 8 is far, far behind iOS in productivity tools, too. And I mean tablet productivity tools, not traditional desktop software with desktop user interface, available on a tablet. Just to give one example: my PIM software is Toodledo. As an app, it's only available on iOS -- not even on Android, let alone Win 8. It can be used via the website, but that's an inferior solution on a tablet. And that's exactly where Windows 8 fails most (for now): lack of apps. And I'm not talking about games, but about productivity apps. What could be more important for productivity purposes than email software (Mailbox), PIM software (Toodledo), e-reader software (Marvin and GoodReader), etc. etc. etc.? None of these great apps are available on Windows 8, and their functional alternatives on that platform lag far behind the iOS apps in terms of quality and usability on a tablet.

Summary: good for you if you enjoy your Surface Pro. But, on the basis of a sample of one (your own person), please do not make conclusions about the suitability of iOS devices to serve as productivity tools.
You link productivity tools/apps to being productive.
To me, that's only partially true.
For example: In the beginning, iOS devices hadn't even been capable of copy/paste. Whatever apps/tools you might have used back then: It still can't be a productive tool. Copy/paste is such basic a pre-requisite, that you're lost without it. Same, to me, is true for the onscreen keyboard. Yes, most of the time I'll try to use a physical keyboard. But if this would be possible all (most) of the time, I could use my MacBook Air. So obviously there has to be a reason for using a tablet. For some, it may be the touchscreen. For me it was not opening the lid of a notebook, i.i when crammed on a train. But with the onscreen keyboard of iOS devices you can't do much. At least there are shortcuts for some time now. But before that? Productive?
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Old 11-09-2013, 08:06 AM   #179
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Please, don't mention ancient history that has no relevance for today's functionality. That's the same as if I was evaluating Windows 8 on the basis of DOS.

Of course the first iPhone was unusable for me -- I never bought it! Instead, I bought my final Windows Mobile phone at the time, an HTC device (even more expensive than iPhone in those days), and suffered through its use. As I've been saying, default Apple software as a rule is awful; iOS devices without advanced 3rd-party apps would not be an option for me.

As to tablets, which is what we were talking about, I insist on my original statement: iPad 1 was a productivity device for me from Day 1 when it first went on sale in Europe in 2010 when I bought it. The apps "universe" was already well developed in those days.
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Old 11-09-2013, 08:13 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
Please, don't mention ancient history that has no relevance for today's functionality. That's the same as if I was evaluating Windows 8 on the basis of DOS.

Of course the first iPhone was unusable for me -- I never bought it! Instead, I bought my final Windows Mobile phone at the time, an HTC device (even more expensive than iPhone in those days), and suffered through its use. As I've been saying, default Apple software as a rule is awful; iOS devices without advanced 3rd-party apps would not be an option for me.

As to tablets, which is what we were talking about, I insist on my original statement: iPad 1 was a productivity device for me from Day 1 when it first went on sale in Europe in 2010 when I bought it. The apps "universe" was already well developed in those days.
How many hours per day do you use your iPad as a "productivity tool"?
I'm not talking about showing some presentation on it. This can be done on every tablet.
I'm talking about building presentations, manipulating huge Excel files, managing mass emails or whatever you need in your line of work.
I'm using my Surface Pro maybe 5 hours per day that way.
Before Surface Pro, I've done it all on my MacBook Air.

Re. "ancient history": Okay, recent example then (although I find it totally relevant, using that history. I haven'g got the time [time = money], to test each new generation, whether they finally fixed some issue):
Maybe I've missed it. But I never could make my onscreen keyboard in iOS learn. It still, after almost 6 years, doesn't recognize my email address and the likes.
In Swype, after the very first time I enter it, it's done. And in the last version, Swype even synchronizes my dictionary on all my devices using it. I start a new unit with a dictionary built over the last 2 years...
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