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Old 10-20-2013, 12:04 AM   #16
Tex2002ans
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Originally Posted by phossler View Post
Is the 'dead tree' approach of putting footnotes at the bottom of the page or putting endnotes at the end of the chapter the best way for an ebook?
Currently, there are two main ways of doing footnotes:
  • In a separate Footnotes chapter
  • As "endnotes" at the end of each chapter (this is the method I use)

A separate footnotes chapter might have the advantage in:
  • Matching the original look of the book (if it has its own separate footnote chapter)
  • Allowing users to easily skip this chapter all together
    • Side Note: There is important information in footnotes!!!! The author/editor would have never put them in in the first place!

When I first started, I matched whatever the original book used, but I have drifted towards using my hammer to bash all footnotes into the end of each chapter method for multiple reasons:
  • The reading device does not need to load a completely different file
    • On older devices, such as my original Nook, there is quite a delay when loading separate HTML files.
    • This made the book feel extremely sluggish when jumping back/forth between footnotes.
  • If the physical book had an extremely large separate footnotes chapter, it may pass the ~300 KB filesize limit.
    • Spreading the footnotes throughout the book in each chapter made hitting the filesize limit MUCH less likely.
    • Spreading footnotes at the end of each chapter also allowed me to make all ebooks use the same consistent code.
  • Much simpler code
    • Yes yes, I know it would be more robust to include the filename in every link, but that would be a complete pain to Regex and I am lazy.
      • In my case, I would have to change my "id" format to include chapter numbers so there is no overlap:
      • Text in "Chapter 2": <a href="../Text/Footnotes.xhtml#fn2.1" id="ft2.1">[1]</a>
      • Footnote in "Footnote chapter": <p><a href="../Text/02.xhtml#ft2.1" id="fn2.1">[1]</a>
  • In my specific case, a lot of the books I convert might be posted directly to a website as a blog post.
    • Having a separate footnotes chapter would make posting "Chapter 1" "Chapter 2" "Chapter 3" a complete pain in the butt.
      • You would have to go to the Footnotes chapter, copy/paste the Footnotes to the bottom of the post, and edit all the links.
      • Currently you can just copy/paste the HTML and do a few minor tweaks.

I have seen mention of it on the boards, some users decide to stick a "jump past footnotes" link at the beginning of the footnotes. This will jump you right to the next chapter.

Code:
[...]

<p>Chapter 1 Text Chapter 1 Text Chapter 1 Text Chapter 1 Text</p>

<hr/>

<p><a href="../Text/02.xhtml">[JUMP TO CHAPTER 2]</a></p>

  <p><a href="#ft1" id="fn1">[1]</a> Chapter 1 Footnote 1 Chapter 1 Footnote 1 Chapter 1 Footnote 1 Chapter 1 Footnote 1</p>

  <p><a href="#ft2" id="fn2">[2]</a> Chapter 1 Footnote 2 Chapter 1 Footnote 2 Chapter 1 Footnote 2 Chapter 1 Footnote 2</p>

[...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
Most of the time I see the endnotes at the end of the chapter technique used, and I always felt it was a little 'awkward' to navigate to and back.
I personally have no problem just "clicking through" all the footnotes if I have no interest in reading them... sort of like if you were reading a physical book you go into "lala land" and skip to the next page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
For an ebook would it be more appropriate to somehow make the footnoted material inline and set off with a distinctive style?
I just did a search and see that Liz Castro's site has an example of it working in iBooks:

http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/20...pub-3-and.html

And there was recently an image that was posted of "pop up" footnotes potentially being on the newest Kindle.

In future formats, there will most likely be a standard way to do "pop up" footnotes. If you are creating the EPUB for personal usage, your device supports it, and/or you are creating it for a very limited audience (iBooks only), then go right ahead.

This is also another reason I stress code consistency, when future formats/methods do come around, if all of your footnotes are done exactly the same way, it will be easy as pie to implement any changes that are required.

For work, I create a "one EPUB to rule them all" which then gets converted to a Kindle version as well. If you are doing this professionally, you have to keep in mind the old Kindles/devices, so you need good fallback code. The old Kindle cannot handle fancy CSS, so a distinctive style or floating box would most likely be out of the question.

If you create separate EPUBs taking advantage of quirks in each of the devices/readers, then you can have fun creating 5+ different versions of the same book.

And your problem of "skipping the footnotes" becomes even more of a complete pain if you actually stick the footnotes inline. Inline footnotes easily become unwieldy when footnotes are more than a sentence.

Feel free to post examples/pictures of inline footnotes that you believe work well. I personally have never seen them work well.

(I have turned into an angry typographer... MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY )

Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
Obviously customer and house rules are correct, even when they're not.
Luckily I am the one creating the "house rules" at work. My mentality = minimal code (much less chance of anything breaking on all the different devices, and doesn't get in the way of readers) + consistency (easy as pie in the future to change things if needed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
Hope this is not off topic
Discussion is good. It is also great when other people give input in what they do as well. We are all here to make high quality ebooks, and we all learn/absorb from eachother.
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:51 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by phossler View Post
Related question about footnote placement / formatting.

Is the 'dead tree' approach of putting footnotes at the bottom of the page or putting endnotes at the end of the chapter the best way for an ebook?
At the bottom of what page? If someone increases the font size, it could be 2-3 pages away. If they are long, they completely break the text flow and you can't just skip right over it like you do with a physical book.

For reasons that have already been stated, I tend to go for endnotes for speed (having a slow reader) and keeping the footnotes numbers out of the hundreds. For a book which in which footnotes are not citations, but actual information, I like them inline, so long as they are relatively short. I put them in .9 em and italic so they can be skipped over if the reader likes. I put them right at the end of the associated paragraph so what they apply to can be readily seen.
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Old 10-20-2013, 11:23 AM   #18
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Hmmm -- good thoughts from both of you -- thanks

Obviously the footnote at the foot of the page image on an ereader is not going to work

So it seems like there are 2 kinds of notes? Cites and additional material?


So what are your thoughts on a 'one size doesn't fit all' approach?

a. Cites to a source document would seem to work best using a non-superscript [##] hyperlink to end-of-chapter Notes. I almost always have each chapter in a separate file so no complicated RegEx.

b. For actual information, the inline but distinctively set off seems less disruptive to the reading flow.

c. Additional walk-on question. Is it really necessary these hyperlinking days to use the paper book footnote number approach (regardless of formatting). I have a hard time hitting such a small target on a good day. It would seem that hyperlinking from a word or phrase to the noted material and reversing by hyperlinking back would be more ebook friendly

Paul
Attached Files
File Type: epub Testing Note Options.epub (2.9 KB, 18 views)
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Old 10-21-2013, 06:30 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by mrmikel View Post
For a book which in which footnotes are not citations, but actual information, I like them inline, so long as they are relatively short. I put them in .9 em and italic so they can be skipped over if the reader likes. I put them right at the end of the associated paragraph so what they apply to can be readily seen.
Hmmm so this was a physical/PDF book that you worked on, and changed to an EPUB? Mind posting examples of this in action (with links to the original PDF if possible)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
Obviously the footnote at the foot of the page image on an ereader is not going to work
Yes yes, by "foot"notes (belong at the footer of the page) I mean "end"notes (at the end of the chapter). In EPUBs most people get lazy and just use foot/end interchangeably (since almost everyone sticks them at the end of chapter/in a separate chapter).

Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
So it seems like there are 2 kinds of notes? Cites and additional material?
This current EPUB I am working on, it has the mother of all footnotes. It spans 7 pages:

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Code:
<p><sup>1</sup> <i>The Social Organism</i>.</p>

  <p>The difference between an organization and an organism is hard to define, simply because we do not know what life is. An organism is an organized unit possessed of the mysterious thing that we call life — a fact and a concept from the field of biology.</p>

  <p>The distinction between a social organization and a social organism is the same distinction: a social organism must be a something in which the principle of life is the basis of the organization. Social organizations there are without limit. Each of us may be a member at large in an indefinite number — the family, the church in its different branches, the State in its different subdivisions, the Masons, the Odd Fellows, the Royal Society, the Academy, the Anti-Tuberculosis League, the International Peace Society, the reading circle, the Club, and the football team — perhaps also in the world and the Universe. Are all of these also organisms in the sense of things themselves alive, rather than merely made up — some of them — of things which are separately alive?</p>

  <p>They may be: how can we know, not knowing what life is? The biologists do not so declare them; they see no evidence of the centralizing, coördinating, organizing activity of that strange fact called life. Each of these organizations appears to lack that sort of unity which we call individuality. But it may none the less be there. In a family of father, mother, and two children, there may be, unknown to any member of it, still another member, a fifth individual, the family itself. There may be, indeed, two or three or a dozen of these others; how shall we deny it? Unproved, it is also undisproved — and undisprovable. We do not know. Likewise, how can we assert it? For anything that we know to</p>

 <p>the contrary, every atom in the Universe may have each its separate psychic aspect and activities — herein resting the secret of chemical affinity: their souls are drawn to one another or are seeking their mates. But is it science to assert it or to assume it? And have we thereby explained anything? One mystery is not the competent solution of another. This sort of explanation is merely pseudo-explanation — faith or metaphysics or guess. In similar jargon, principles are sometimes said to be working themselves out, or to be engaged in the process of realizing themselves. But talk like this means merely that some unknown X is doing something or other. We recall from Goethe “Men often think, if only words they hear, that therewith goes material for thinking.” So also Gilbert and Sullivan:</p>

 <blockquote> <p>“Her gentle spirit rolls</p>

  <p>Through the melody of souls; —</p>

  <p>Which is doubtless very pretty,</p>

  <p>But I don’t know what it means.”</p></blockquote>

  <p class="noindent">Nevertheless it may roll. It may be that the Universe, as a unified organized thing, is alive in every detail — an organism in the biological sense — as Pan-psychism declares to be the ultimate truth. Surely somewhere in the Universe all that there is in it has its explanation — if only we could find it. But the mere assertion of this large fact — taking it as a fact — is not an explanation of all the intermediate subordinate facts. After all, what is <i>explanation</i> in our human sense? We understand not one whit the better any single item out of a great whole, by discovering that, taking it as a whole, it stands for us as merely one gigantic flux and pow-wow. To assert this is rather so far a confession of our total lack of understanding. The social organism people greatly need to master the distinction between an explanation and a mystery. It is not the solution of a problem to give it up, nor the unriddling of your riddle to confess that you yourself have no solution.</p>

  <p class="margintop">Good rhetorical usage does doubtless permit us to speak of human beings in aggregates, with the use of a singular verb: <i>the Committee is agreed; the group disperses; Congress votes; the army is marching</i>. We may talk of public opinion, <i>esprit de corps</i>, the spirit of the times. But probably no one understands this collective use to imply or to assume organic unity.</p>

  <p>Equally well we may say that <i>the army are marching</i>, <i>the committee are agreed</i> (with one another), the proper use depending on whether the group is taken as a whole or by its constituent units; <i>the crew was exhausted</i> or <i>the crew were exhausted</i> — accordingly as we mean one thing or the other. Though the act or the situation is really one of each individual separately, there is no actual ambiguity or uncertainty involved in saying that <i>the battalion is eating dinner</i>. The activities are similar, roughly simultaneous, and are thought of in block. True, one man eats rapidly, another slowly, some little, and others much, and a few sick ones not at all, — but the expression serves, and implies its own limitations of accuracy. And so of an army, when we say that <i>it marches</i>, no doubt is even faintly suggested that each one does his own walking, works his own muscles, uses up his own tissue, and that presumably many are halt, some falling out by the wayside, while still others limp, and some swear. But no one of these differences matters for the purposes of the thought in mind. True, the expression is in strictness inaccurate, were any perversity bent on misinterpreting it. But when it comes to asserting that the army is brushing its teeth or has stubbed its toe, there is obvious difficulty.</p>

  <p>And for purposes of the accurate analysis of the price problem, there is really the same difficulty in thinking of a social coldness or hunger or desire or pleasure or pain. In the price problem, the need is to understand precisely how the particular individuals arrive at their respective demand prices. There is no one single homogeneous utility nor any one single aggregate demand price. Utility, for the purposes of the analysis, is an individual category. Even in public finance, the tax costs and the public services are ultimately individual.</p>

  <p class="margintop">It must, at any rate, be clear that if society is an organism at all, it is an organism of a very low order — like, say, the jellyfish. But it is only to the higher orders of organisms that mind and thought and purpose and will can be confidently ascribed. To interpret social phenomena in any organic sense adapted to explain them, as connoting judgment, appraisal, comparison, approval, condemnation, — the social organism must take on the attributes of personality.</p>

  <p>So far as we can make out, personality implies a distinct, separate, and centralized psychic unity, in which at least four things are essential — thought, will, consciousness, and memory. Try to make out what the <i>you</i> would be, lacking any one of these. What makes <i>you you?</i> Unconsciousness means the suspension of individuality. Perhaps thought and will are not quite so clearly essential. But, obviously enough, there is no personality without memory — the cement that binds together states of consciousness which would otherwise be unrelated. What makes the <i>you</i> of the present moment the same person with the <i>you</i> of a half year ago? Dual personality is a duality of independent memory systems. If in the next life we are to remember nothing of this one, it cannot greatly matter whether we are to live again or not; immortality, on terms of entire forgetfulness, would be a valueless gift — not the continued life of one, but the birth of some one else. So far, then, as we know, there is no social organism in the sense of a personality fulfilling this fourfold test — fulfilling, indeed, any one of the four tests.</p>

  <p class="margintop">Not the less, however, must it be frankly admitted that a mere hypothesis, as sheer assumption, if it offer a working explanation of facts which otherwise must go without explanation, becomes thereby something more than mere hypothesis or assumption. That it fits the facts, harmonizes them, unifies them, makes them consistent when nothing else will, is some inductive support of its truth. On these terms, any hypothesis, however tentative, may stand, pending the coming of something better. The organic hypothesis may, in truth, be so far better than nothing. But not much better; it leaves us in the unsatisfactory position not only of affirming that of which we can have no knowledge — which is bad — but of affirming a thing of which we also affirm that we can never have any knowledge — which is worse.</p>

<p>But will the social organism hypothesis meet this test of sole unifier of the facts? Are there other possible explanations? Are we yet compelled to resort to these devices of speculation and quasi-explanation? It is at any rate a crass abuse of hypothesis if it be made to stand as an obstacle in the way of the search for an explanation in terms of what is already known. A hypothesis can never be employed as the refutation of any offered explanation, as answer to it, or defense, or objection; it holds its place by tolerance — by the mere negative fact that nothing else is available. It has no evidential quality or argumentative validity. It is rather a standing promise of abdication in favor of anything that can make an affirmative case. It is an invitation and an exhortation to continued research and to constructive effort.</p>

  <p class="margintop">Does, then, the social organism hypothesis fit the facts of a competitive society? It might do well enough — if nothing else would — for the collectivist or socialistic form of organization; but does it express the divisions and antagonisms of interest and activity characteristic of a competitive organization — the preying of cell on cell? When, at the equation of market price, a bushel of wheat is exchanging against a dollar of gold, shall we abandon the demand schedule with all of its different items of offer of gold, and the supply schedule with its different reservation prices — each item of price offer and of supply having its distinct explanation in individual comparisons and individual choices of alternatives — and shall we, pronouncing all these unactual and inadequate, a hopeless quest, betake ourselves to the explanation that society, in its organic unity, has appraised gold separately as a value, and wheat separately as a value, and has found them as equal values, so that now an equality in exchange relations can occur? Or, if a football coach is accorded a salary of a thousand dollars a month and an instructor in Economics a salary of a thousand a year, shall there be offered, as ultimate and final explanation, the statement that society, the world at large, or the Universe, organically approves or appraises or values one service twelve times as highly as the other? And if a highway robber gains $200 from ten minutes of daring and a cellar digger two dollars for 600 minutes of boredom, it will be evident that society appraises the pains and waitings of the one at a worth of $20 a minute against a worth for the other of 1/3 cent a minute. And when the monopolist, by producing half as much product, gets twice as much gain, it will be clear that society evaluates the half at twice as much as the whole — the interference with production at double the contribution to production. There should evidently be somewhere a social insane asylum in which to confine the social organism. So when the lawyer, skillful in advising his clients how legally to do illegal things, gets especially generous fees, this shall be the proof that society finds his services to be highly beneficent. When canned poison brings 20 cents per can and canned corn half as much, this shall be taken to be the idiotic judgment of the aggregate social idiot. By similar devisings, also, are to be explained the dear cheapnesses, the adulterations, the lying advertisings, the prostitutes, the vice trusts, the gambling syndicates, the purchased judicial honor, the offices sold at a price, the elections bought by money for gain, the speculations, the sinecures and the graft; society is organically plundering its organic self, buying itself, selling itself, lying to itself, poisoning itself, making (part of) itself rich at the expense of (part of) itself. And all these market prices and all these individual gains shall stand — by proof of hypothesis — as the appraisals of the racial judgment.</p>



  <p>But to many men who accept the point of view of the social organism, the foregoing criticism will appeal as mere travesty. They mean none of the things charged against them. They do not take society to be a great animal — either male or female, or both or neither. All that they mean is that men in society are in mutual relations of influence and interaction, that each man has truly his individual tastes, choices, desires, demands, costs, sacrifices, hopes and fears, but not separately in the sense that any one is free from the influence of others and of their shaping power — free, that is, from the social <i>milieu</i> in which he has lived. We want clothing as much because other people’s glances beat upon us as that the sun’s rays scorch us. We desire the admiration, the approval, the fear, and the envy of our fellows. Of this sort may be most of the significance of palaces, carriages, champagne, or neckties. We never act or think or feel in isolation. We are individuals <i>in a society</i>. In a sense, therefore, the individual’s desires are social in their derivation: Utility to the individual is a social utility.</p>

  <p>That so much as this is true must be admitted; and let it forthwith be added that no one ever doubted it. But when one has a desire — no matter whence it came — it is his desire, and not the desire of the world at large. No matter when or where or how you get hungry, it is now your hunger, and not the hunger of the fresh air or the long walk that gave it to you. It may, indeed, be due to the fact that you have seen others eating. Even the feeling of being cold may be social in its occasion. But your cold is not thereby a social cold. You may, in truth, feel so much the colder as you see the people about you the more snug and smug. Your cold does not then translate into a social warmness. Your piety, again, may have been taught you; but it is not now the piety of your parents, or of the neighborhood, but only of yourself — even as a breakfast to which all climates have contributed is one man’s breakfast rather than an international breakfast. Perhaps your brother’s impiety has come as a reaction against the overpiety of his neighbors; but it is not now either a social piety or a social impiety. If you get the bubonic plague <i>via</i> some international rat, it will not be Asia or the rat or the world, but you that will be sick; and if you die, the funeral rites will be said over you. The resultant from a parallelogram of forces is not all of the contributing directions at once, but one definite new direction.</p>


  <p class="margintop">Note, finally, how far the interpretation of the social organism must go. If the fact that one’s tastes and habits are copied from other men makes these tastes and habits not his but theirs; if the mists floating inland from the sea are still sea, the grain from the soil still soil, the soil that was rock still rock, the skippers in the cheese still cheese; if origin and genesis not merely shape and determine what a man is, but also define him in terms of themselves, make him them, absorb him, — we shall, by this route, arrive not at social estimates, social desires, and social values, but at cosmic judgments, cosmic estimates, and cosmic valuations. For to our contemporaries, truly, is due much of the shaping of us; but still more is due to the generation next preceding, or to all the endless past. Many also of our individual aims and activities have in view future human beings — our descendants or the race in general, their admiration, their approval, or their welfare. The social organism in the sense of <i>the directive society</i> must include all human generations of all races and of all times, past, present, and to come.</p>

  <p>But if our quest is for origins — for directive, determining, shaping facts, we must include more than the influence of human associations past and present. We shall include as well all the past environment and no small part of the future — the storms of the past centuries and the storms that are yet to be — the wild animals that we have made our prey and the wild animals that have made us their prey — the malevolent microbes and the beneficent — the pestilences that have walked and are walking by night, and the fevers of primitive and of present noondays — all past climates and all past suns and all seas and rains.</p>

  <p>Nor are we to forget that other suns and the most distant stars are raining their beams upon us and prompting us to poetry and romance and to scientific moonshine — and have been at it for countless generations, and will remain at it for some time yet. It follows that all the past and the future of the solar system and of all the stars in the infinite spaces are within the causal complex. There is nothing for it but to learn to think and talk of <i>the social cosmos</i>. And once having learned to think clearly in this emphasis, we shall shortly have the logical insight to see that the word <i>social</i> is mere tautology; we shall talk simply of the <i>cosmos</i>. And having found, as our great conclusion, that all things are explained by the cosmos, we shall — perhaps — return to our place of beginning, ready to fare forth, unincumbered, in the search for real explanations.</p>
I don't know... I think the best way to handle it would be at the end of the chapter with a numbered link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
So what are your thoughts on a 'one size doesn't fit all' approach?

a. Cites to a source document would seem to work best using a non-superscript [##] hyperlink to end-of-chapter Notes. I almost always have each chapter in a separate file so no complicated RegEx.

b. For actual information, the inline but distinctively set off seems less disruptive to the reading flow.
It is sometimes very difficult to tell what the author's actual INTENT was with the footnote. To maintain consistency, I would go with either/or and stick with it throughout the entire book (consistency).

So I would not go out of my way to make SOME footnotes inline, and SOME footnotes at the end of the chapter with [##] links. (Unless of course, this is how it was designed in the original print book/PDF).

Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
c. Additional walk-on question. Is it really necessary these hyperlinking days to use the paper book footnote number approach (regardless of formatting). I have a hard time hitting such a small target on a good day. It would seem that hyperlinking from a word or phrase to the noted material and reversing by hyperlinking back would be more ebook friendly
It might be tough to know exactly what the author intended:

Should the entire sentence be included in the hyperlink?
Should just the last three words be included in the hyperlink?
Should just the sentence in quotes be included?
What happens in the case of footnotes in footnotes?

I think the only way to know would be if you were working directly from HTML source where the author ALREADY HAD HYPERLINKS IN MIND WHEN WRITING the document. For example, if you are transferring blog posts (or maybe MobileRead footnote discussions) -> EPUB.

Also speaking of footnotes, if the original book begins from footnote #1 (OR *) on each individual page, I do not mind renumbering the footnotes to make it easier for the ebook version. I personally see it getting crazy in the EPUB seeing:

Code:
[1] [1] [1] [2] [3] [1] [1] [1] [2]
OR

Code:
[*][*][*] [†] [‡][*][*][*] [†]
In the EPUB, how do you know which number/symbol you came from, and how to jump back? There are way too many '1's and '*'.

This is a case where footnotes cannot transfer well to the EPUB/MOBI equivalents.

I personally use some code that I run all of my EPUBs through which generates all the footnotes for me subsequently per chapter (so it begins from "1" each chapter). Thus I get:

Code:
[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]
For example, I have attached the original PDF + my EPUB version of "Letters to Mr. Malthus" by Jean-Baptiste Say to this post.

There is also the HTML version of the book created by the "Online Library of Liberty":

http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php...95&layout=html
  • The original book uses symbols starting over on each page: *, †, ‡, §, ‖, ¶, ...
  • OLL tends towards using the original footnote symbols in their HTML versions.
  • I tend towards using the sequential numbering system.

Perhaps keeping the original symbols + page numbers might be one of your goals if you are working on non-fiction, where citation of older books might be important. In this case, you might want to make your anchors more descript:

Code:
<p><a href="#ft1" id="fn1">[*]</a>
Might change to something like:

Code:
<p><a href="#ftpg351-1" id="fnpg351-1">[*]</a>
As you can see, this is all a balancing act, depending on what your ultimate goals are.

In my case, you can always just go back to the original PDFs and see if you wanted to cite the book (everything is free). But you can use the EPUB version for actual reading.

As a side note, you can read some more about Footnotes on the Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footnote

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Old 10-21-2013, 09:24 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Tex2002ans View Post
Hmmm so this was a physical/PDF book that you worked on, and changed to an EPUB? Mind posting examples of this in action (with links to the original PDF if possible)?
Here is a book I have been working on. Its footnotes are not extensive, so I have just included the footnote following the paragraph. I have uploaded the original pdf too.

I don't believe I have submitted this yet, since things have gotten a little scattered lately.

Let me know what you think. When the footnotes are at the bottom of the physical page, it means they would be several epub pages away and nearly always break a paragraph.
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:07 AM   #21
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@Tex2002ans

A footnote spanning 7 pages is a book in it's own right

Sticking with a single style within a book would probably be better, I agree. Something I'm reading now seems to use * as a target, repeated many times with in a chapter, both to the text-to-note and the note-to-text links

Almost invariably, it links to brief explainatory text, and I was finding the jumping disrupting, and not to ebook-friendly. There were no endnotes in the 'cite' sense.

Since this is only to make something more readable for me, MY house rules will be to choose the style that make sense one book at a time.

I'm lucky that I have no fussy customers to please

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Old 10-21-2013, 12:03 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmikel View Post
Here is a book I have been working on. Its footnotes are not extensive, so I have just included the footnote following the paragraph. I have uploaded the original pdf too.
Thank you for the PDF/EPUB.

Perhaps we just had different definitions of what an "in-line" citation is. I always thought they went along smack dab in the middle of the paragraphs, surrounded by () or [].

In the case of this book, it has all numbered notes as Endnotes, and tiny Footnotes that are marked with asterisks at the bottom of the page.

You seem to have just placed it between paragraphs:

This is the case I mentioned above, where you could go a few ways:
  • Try to match the look of the original document
    • Your .9em at the end of the paragraph seems fine to me.
      • See potential situation below (marked with NOTE).
  • Move the asterisk/daggers to the endnotes in between the numbers they appeared.
    • This is the method that I personally use, so that all footnotes are in the same area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmikel View Post
Let me know what you think. When the footnotes are at the bottom of the physical page, it means they would be several epub pages away and nearly always break a paragraph.
Of course, I would never break a paragraph just to stick a footnote in the "exact placement as in the physical text". If you would go the method of sticking it in the text, your placement seemed perfect to me (combine the paragraph which flows onto the next page, and add the footnote right after).

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Quote:
<p>On 5 July 1944 Maj. Gen, Robert C. Macon's 83d Infantry Division was ordered to attack in the Carentan Peninsula to seize the town of Santeny. The attack by the division, which had been badly handled by the enemy the previous day, began inauspiciously when several rounds from the ten-minute artillery preparation landed on friendly troops, causing a regimental executive officer to report frantically that the artillery was '"slaughtering our 3d Batta1ion."<a href="#fn9" id="ft9">[9]</a> The incident did not precipitate disaster, but less than two weeks later, shortly before the St. Lô breakout, the CP of one of the 83d Infantry Division's infantry battalions was nearly obliterated by 155~mm howitzer rounds fired by the 957th Field Artillery Battalion. The incident occurred when one of the computers<a href="#fnast1" id="ftast1">[*]</a> in the 957th's Fire Direction Center (FDC) relayed the wrong charge (he said, “‘Charge 4,"' when the mission was computed “‘Charge 5”) to the firing battery. Corrective action was subsequently taken to avoid such human errors: computers were to repeat aloud to the battalion S-3 the instructions given to the batteries by telephone.<a href="#fn10" id="ft10">[10]</a></p>

<p class="fn"><a href="#ftast1" id="fnast1">[*]</a>a soldier, not a machine</p>

<p>The lines of the opposing forces in Normandy were frequently so close that the use of artillery was limited so as not to strike friendly forces.<sup>11</sup> Nevertheless, several units experienced cases of artillery amicicide during the early weeks of the fighting on the Continent. A nighttime raid by a platoon of the 117th Infantry (30th Infantry Division) in late June 1944 into the town of Font-du-St. Fromond near Airel on the Vire River was disrupted by friendly artillery fire, demonstrating the difficulty of coordinating fires at night in the hedgerow country.<sup>12</sup> Similarly, the attack of a battalion of the 8th Infantry (4th Infantry Division) on the town of La Chapelle-en-Juger following the Operation COBRA bombing of 25 July 1944 was brought to a halt by friendly artillery fire.<sup>13</sup></p>
Personally, when I run into books with a mix of numbers + symbols, I just move the symbols notes with the rest of the footnotes. In this case, the asterisk note would be between endnote 9 + 10, and do a link back and forth from text/note:

Quote:
<p><a href="#ft9" id="fn9">[9]</a> Blumenson, Breakout and Pursuit, p. 84.</p>

<p class="fn"><a href="#ftast1" id="fnast1">[*]</a>a soldier, not a machine</p>

<p><a href="#ft10" id="fn10">[10]</a> Interview with Brig. Gen. James L. Collins, Jr., a former US Army Chief of Military History, who then commanded the 957th FA Battalion, 10 April 1980 at Fort Leavenworth, KS.</p>
Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
Since this is only to make something more readable for me, MY house rules will be to choose the style that make sense one book at a time.
The way that mrmikel handled it seems fine to me.

NOTE: Although if there are a massive amount of them, I would just be be aware of the placement of all symboled notes in the middle of paragraphs.

You might have an asterisk on page 6 pointing to the last paragraph on the page, and an asterisk on page 7 pointing to the first paragraph, and a dagger on page 7 pointing to the second paragraph.

So you will have [..] + Last of page 6 + ASTERISK + first of page 7 + ASTERISK + second of page 7 + DAGGER + [...]

Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
A footnote spanning 7 pages is a book in it's own right
That one hurt my eyes to piece together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
I'm lucky that I have no fussy customers to please
Indeed. Luckily those who I work with seek ME out for quality conversion, and they listen to reason!!! (Actually, most of them just say "just do what you have been doing, I trust your judgement.")

Last edited by Tex2002ans; 10-21-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 10-21-2013, 04:04 PM   #23
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Forgive the double post, but while looking through my archives, I stumbled upon this book I completed a few months ago. A Treatise on Political Economy by Jean-Baptiste Say.

Now this is another HORROR example of footnotes. There are three sets of footnotes, and lots of footnotes in footnotes:

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  • *, †, ‡ are original footnotes
    • I changed to [1] [2] [3] ...
  • (a), (b), (c) are Translator footnotes
    • I changed to [a] [b] [c] ...
  • (1), (2), (3) are American Editor footnotes
    • changed to [#1] [#2] [#3] ...

I changed everything to consecutively numbered/lettered per chapter, and placed the footnotes all in the order they appeared in the text.

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I have attached the completed EPUB to this post if you are interested.

Here is an HTML version by OLL (Online Library of Liberty): http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php...74&layout=html

Note: Their version decided to jam original+translator notes into [1]-[###], which lost the importance of which were which, and the American Editor footnotes were oddly turned into asterisks... which just makes it impossible to navigate back in an EPUB (as you can see where they stuck them, the entire section turns into "[*]" links). Plus the order the footnotes are in makes slightly more than zero sense.

Here is the cleanest PDF version on Archive.org that I based much of the EPUB work on:

https://archive.org/details/atreatiseonpoli02biddgoog

As you can see, in a situation such as this (this is really up there with the worst case footnote scenario), any sort of in-line footnotes would get wildly out of hand. While my method of sticking all of it at the end and in the order it appears to have worked out quite well.
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Old 10-21-2013, 07:41 PM   #24
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Thanks for the example.

You REALLY earned your money with the footnotes on this one

I like to 'poke around' inside to see other and better ways of doing things.

I did have a question about Appendix A. ADE displays it as in the attached screenshot, and I was wondering if the table was the way you intended?

Doesn't seem to align correctly, and I am not very good on table CSS to actually understand a lot of what you have

Paul
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:41 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
Thanks for the example.

You REALLY earned your money with the footnotes on this one
That book was one of the more painful conversions... although I have converted worse.

When you do 175+ books (I pump out a new EPUB every few days), you start running into some good examples, and learn how to save yourself time/make things consistent between all books.

When I go back and clean up some of my very earlier works, all it takes is a little CSS update, some quick regexfu, and some spellchecking (catching very minor mistakes I missed first time around, Sigil's Spellcheck window has made this INFINITELY EASIER/FASTER).

Since I have been consistent with all my code usage, it doesn't take long at all to bring those EPUBs up to "current standards".

For example, earlier I mentioned swapping between <sup>##</sup> and [##] footnotes. I can open an EPUB, run a regex within a few seconds, and BAM, up to date.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
I like to 'poke around' inside to see other and better ways of doing things.
Exactly, that is how we all learn, that is how/why I initially got into this stuff... I saw that most of the EPUBs had tons of typos. As I read, I wrote down all the typos. I opened them up in Sigil and began fixing them.... and that is when I noticed it.

The code being used in the EPUBs were spaghetti code, and it was a huge pain in the butt to search and fix quirks.

Sure, the spaghetti EPUB is ok to read, and it looks ok on devices, and sure, it MIGHT be ok when converted to MOBI/KF8.

But when the future formats come around, it would be a giant pain in the butt to convert, and who knows how the output/code will look when popping out of a converter (like Calibre).

Starting off on the right foot right in the beginning will save you a lot of time/money in the long-run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
I did have a question about Appendix A. ADE displays it as in the attached screenshot, and I was wondering if the table was the way you intended?
I was probably trying to stray from my usual table code slightly, and failing miserably.

Note: Actually, I took a look at my changelog and I spotted this:

Quote:
Still could use some work on the tables, i will have to take a much closer look in the next few days. The EPUB is 99% complete though.
I guess I forgot to mark this one with [WIP].

I will maybe fix this up and get a new version out within the next few days.... but if I believe my note, it will be three more months before that table gets updated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phossler View Post
Doesn't seem to align correctly, and I am not very good on table CSS to actually understand a lot of what you have
Do not learn table code from me, I am also horrible at tables, and am on the lookout for some good code I can commandeer and begin using.

I just use basic:

Code:
<table border="1">
<tr><th colspan="2">Table Header</th></tr>
<tr><td>Cell 1</td><td>Cell 2</td></tr>
<tr><td>Cell 3</td><td>Cell 4</td></tr>
</table>
No CSS or anything. It is hideous, but all the information is there (and that is the most important thing).

Table CSS can always be added in the future within a few minutes, as long as you have a nice, clean, consistent code as your base.

Only thing I do is add some table captions:

Code:
div.imagecaption, div.tablecaption {
	font-size: .8em;
	margin-bottom: 1em;
	text-indent: 0;
	text-align: center;
}
Code:
[...]
</table>

<div class="tablecaption">
    <p><sup>a</sup> Census office’s adjusted figures for 1870 and 1880, correcting supposed omissions in the census of 1870.</p>

    <p><sup>b</sup> The decrease in average density is explained in the text, p. 430.</p>
  </div>

<p>[...]
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:32 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex2002ans View Post
I just did a search and see that Liz Castro's site has an example of it working in iBooks:

http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/20...pub-3-and.html

And there was recently an image that was posted of "pop up" footnotes potentially being on the newest Kindle.

In future formats, there will most likely be a standard way to do "pop up" footnotes. If you are creating the EPUB for personal usage, your device supports it, and/or you are creating it for a very limited audience (iBooks only), then go right ahead.
As you say, Tex2002ans, Liz Castro has given us a nice blog of the <aside> tag being used to give lovely pop-ups in ePub3 on iBooks, but I haven't yet seen anything about equivalent functionality on ePub2 or Kindle. Can you remember where you saw it?
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:00 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaihana Joe View Post
As you say, Tex2002ans, Liz Castro has given us a nice blog of the <aside> tag being used to give lovely pop-ups in ePub3 on iBooks, but I haven't yet seen anything about equivalent functionality on ePub2 or Kindle. Can you remember where you saw it?
I believe it was a promotional image in the new Kindle Paperwhite. This is an image showing it off + a review which shows another image:

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...otnotes-sm.jpg

http://mashable.com/2013/09/29/amazo...rwhite-review/

As to the code that needs to be used... I do not believe Amazon has released the code for inline footnotes yet.
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex2002ans View Post
I believe it was a promotional image in the new Kindle Paperwhite. This is an image showing it off + a review which shows another image:

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...otnotes-sm.jpg

http://mashable.com/2013/09/29/amazo...rwhite-review/

As to the code that needs to be used... I do not believe Amazon has released the code for inline footnotes yet.
Awesome, thanks - I had totally missed that news. I guess it will only come to touch-enabled devices. Shame though - it can be pretty tortuous using footnotes on the basic Kindle and anything that would help would be a godsend.
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:08 PM   #29
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Awesome, thanks - I had totally missed that news. I guess it will only come to touch-enabled devices. Shame though - it can be pretty tortuous using footnotes on the basic Kindle and anything that would help would be a godsend.
No clue how it will be handled or how it will be handled to also give backwards compatibility to older Kindle devices. Best bet is to just keep clean, consistent code.

Hopefully some Regex or basic scripts will then be able to make the transition as painless as possible.

There is also some information in EPUB 3 for notes:

http://www.idpf.org/accessibility/gu...html/notes.php
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Old 10-29-2013, 02:18 AM   #30
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RE: Popup Footnotes -- When I first started working with epubs, I was viewing the html in a web browser (Opera, if it matters), and saw that using the footnote text inside the "title" attribute resulted in a "tooltip/popup". Imagine my disappointment to learn that mostly only works in browsers! But, as Jellby noted, those can't be formatted and display as plain text.

Also, a quick hijack/comment/question about "inline" notes -- I'm talking about the ones that can logically be placed inside the actual sentence or paragraph they refer to. I'm working on books where the AUTHOR makes lots of side comments in square brackets.

I hate to make a chapter end-note for a simple comment, such as providing a date or person's full name. But if I put those notes in italics in square brackets or in curly brackets, along with the Author comments in square brackets and normal phrases in parentheses, it starts to look pretty cluttered. What do other folks do for cases like this?

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