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Old 06-11-2013, 06:01 AM   #1
taylor198078
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Arrow Apple faces off with DOJ in e books trial

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Old 06-11-2013, 02:01 PM   #2
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Thanks. I will be very, very, VERY surprised if Apple doesn't get their #$%#$ handed to them by the judge. K for you.

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Old 06-21-2013, 01:13 PM   #3
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Have I missed something? Haven't been on the board in awhile, but with the trial ending, I thought I'd come listen to the exact same opinions everybody had before the trial

Only I don't see any such discussion?

My bet -- Apple wins. Apple didn't have to deny a conspiracy, only that they were not part of any such. Agency pricing and Most Favored Nation status are legal ways of doing business...and Apple has shown that they were pursuing their own good business with their actions.

Meanwhile the Government's "smoking gun" was an email that was NEVER SENT -- lol!

I know...nothing about this trial is going to change anyone's opinion. Well, perhaps we can all do away with the "Amazon wasn't selling books below cost" garbage, because the trial has showed they were.

I think the government could have had a more successful case going after Amazon for predatory pricing.
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Old 06-21-2013, 01:38 PM   #4
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Amazon wasn't selling most books below cost. Just some. Most businesses regularly have "loss leaders" to entice customers to their stores. It is a common and completely legal retail practice. Amazon'e ebook store wasn't even close to operating at a loss.
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Old 06-21-2013, 01:54 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
Have I missed something? Haven't been on the board in awhile, but with the trial ending, I thought I'd come listen to the exact same opinions everybody had before the trial

Only I don't see any such discussion?

My bet -- Apple wins. Apple didn't have to deny a conspiracy, only that they were not part of any such. Agency pricing and Most Favored Nation status are legal ways of doing business...and Apple has shown that they were pursuing their own good business with their actions.

Meanwhile the Government's "smoking gun" was an email that was NEVER SENT -- lol!

I know...nothing about this trial is going to change anyone's opinion. Well, perhaps we can all do away with the "Amazon wasn't selling books below cost" garbage, because the trial has showed they were.

I think the government could have had a more successful case going after Amazon for predatory pricing.
Did anyone ever say that "Amazon wasn't selling books below cost"? I don't remember reading or hearing that. Amazon was absolutely selling some books below cost. The "garbage" that I heard about Amazon was that they were losing money on their ebook business, and I don't believe that was ever proven. In fact, I thought I remembered that it was actually disproven, but I don't have that cite handy, and I don't feel like looking it up now. If the government goes after Amazon for predatory pricing for selling ebooks below cost, it will have to also go after Barnes and Noble--walk into any B&N today, and you will see many many hardcover books on sale for less than B&N paid for them. They're called loss leaders, and most stores will do this--price one product below cost to get you in the door and hopefully sell you things that they do make money on.

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Old 06-21-2013, 01:55 PM   #6
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Amazon wasn't selling most books below cost. Just some. Most businesses regularly have "loss leaders" to entice customers to their stores. It is a common and completely legal retail practice. Amazon'e ebook store wasn't even close to operating at a loss.
The entire NYT Bestseller's list which accounts for the majority of the profits publishers make.

You can't argue that Amazon didn't sell many books bellow cost and "Agency pricing is harming consumers" in the same breath. Either "not many" books' pricing were affected -- or lots of them were. A million "back list" titles and indie titles don't amount to a hill of beans compared to the 100 Top Selling jus released books.
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Old 06-21-2013, 02:00 PM   #7
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he "garbage" that I heard about Amazon was that they were losing money on their ebook business, and I don't believe that was ever proven.
Amazon doesn't release it's sales or financial information such that anyone could know.

What we do know is that the entire NYT Bestseller's list was sold at $9.99 and that's below the wholesale cost. We know that the publishers were upset due to the ability of Amazon to erode the sales of the hard back books that go for $26 -- and setting $9.99 as the price consumers would expect a new release popular book to go for.

We also know that the publishers couldn't do much about it as Amazon controlled the lions share of both physical and ebook sales. We were given a demonstration when Amazon ceased sales of ALL McMillan books over disagreements about ebook pricing (even though Amazon changed their mind and signed the Agency model).
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Old 06-21-2013, 02:17 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
Amazon doesn't release it's sales or financial information such that anyone could know.
So are you going to retract what you just said?:
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I know...nothing about this trial is going to change anyone's opinion. Well, perhaps we can all do away with the "Amazon wasn't selling books below cost" garbage, because the trial has showed they were.
Because you seem to think that you do know.
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Old 06-21-2013, 05:45 PM   #9
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From what I've heard, I don't think that the Gov't has proven it's case. First, the big news was that B&N was talking to the publishers about agency pricing well before Apple entered into negotiations. It's something that the book publishers had been pushing for a number of years. Second, at the time, Amazon had something like 90% or more of the ebook market at the time. According to testimony, after opening up the iTunes ebooks story, Apple has had a fairly steady 20% of the ebook market, this includes a year of Apple not enforcing it's most favored nation clause, which kind of blows the Gov't case out of the water.

The only real issue that I see is the fact that the judge said before the trial started that she thought that the Gov't had a good chance of winning. Of course, if Apple loses, that's pretty much prima facie evidence that Apple will have a pretty good shot at appealing on judicial prejudice.

We should find out somewhere between now and 3 months for now.
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Old 06-23-2013, 04:38 PM   #10
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From the way things are going it seems as though Apple are going to get away with this
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Old 06-23-2013, 06:07 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by shalym View Post
The "garbage" that I heard about Amazon was that they were losing money on their ebook business, and I don't believe that was ever proven. In fact, I thought I remembered that it was actually disproven, but I don't have that cite handy, and I don't feel like looking it up now.
Correct it came out as part of the pre-trial stuff that Amazon has always made an overall profit on eBooks, just not on all titles.


Also, while they sold many "Bestsellers" at $9.99 (& not all $9.99 bestsellers meant a loss) there were plenty of times that they were charging more than that (there was always lots of complaining about it back then from the $9.99 or less or no sale folks).
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Old 06-23-2013, 06:17 PM   #12
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From what I've heard, I don't think that the Gov't has proven it's case. First, the big news was that B&N was talking to the publishers about agency pricing well before Apple entered into negotiations. It's something that the book publishers had been pushing for a number of years.
Which is irrelevant. Agency pricing isn't illegal. The case hinges on whether Apple arranged a collusion between the publishers to bring about agency pricing simultaneously.

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Second, at the time, Amazon had something like 90% or more of the ebook market at the time. According to testimony, after opening up the iTunes ebooks story, Apple has had a fairly steady 20% of the ebook market, this includes a year of Apple not enforcing it's most favored nation clause, which kind of blows the Gov't case out of the water.
Which is also irrelevant. Colluding to bring about agency pricing isn't excused just because a competitor has a large market share and there doesn't seem to be another way to break into it.

Incidentally, the 20% hasn't been steady. This is a myth based on a slide presented at Steve Jobs' keynote at WWDC 2010:

http://www.the-digital-reader.com/20.../#.UcdkQyinbD0

Jobs reported that to date at that time ebook sales via iBooks accounted for 22% of the ebook sales of 5 of the big 6 publishers. However, as he said that, a slide flashed up behind him which said "22% share of total ebook sales".

That got picked up and requoted as 22% of the ebook market share.

It seems more likely that back then iBooks had about 8 to 10% of the market, and we're being told now that this has grown to 20%.

Graham

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Old 06-24-2013, 12:15 AM   #13
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From the way things are going it seems as though Apple are going to get away with this
Now that's real fair play - if Apple lose then that's justice but if they win then "They got away with it." Funny, that's what I thought the court case was about... you know the "innocent/guilty thing" but I guess that gets over-ruled, as usual, by the prejudices of the commentator - all normal then...
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:08 AM   #14
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From the way things are going it seems as though Apple are going to get away with this
Whereas you decided in advance that they were guilty and so don't see the need for the inconvenience of a trial? Ever heard the expression "innocent until proven guilty"?
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:16 AM   #15
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Also, while they sold many "Bestsellers" at $9.99 (& not all $9.99 bestsellers meant a loss) there were plenty of times that they were charging more than that (there was always lots of complaining about it back then from the $9.99 or less or no sale folks).
It was only books on the NYT Bestsellers' list that were sold for $9.99, if memory serves me correctly.
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