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Old 02-19-2013, 01:22 PM   #16
DaleDe
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I support the idea of DiapDealer.
That was the way the original Sigil worked.

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Old 02-19-2013, 01:37 PM   #17
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The Lights just went OUT and I have 15 minutes (tops)of UPS time to save and shut down (FWIW hibernate take longer than a shut down on XP)
I see what you're saying, but I can still honestly say I've never really had an OMG-I-need-to-save-it-RIGHT-NOW-come-what-may moment.

Changes/S&R's which can be THAT potentially dangerous/important are always made with a solid working backup in the bag. And thus piddly-poo changes are the only ones that I could possibly lose in that kind of emergency. Worst case... I have to write down that I need to redo that last piddly-poo change and move on.

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That was the way the original Sigil worked.
I remember that. Same sort of thing, I guess... except I'm suggesting that the alternate format be the exception rather than the rule. Still a single archive, just one that's allowed to exist in any old heinous state it wants to.

Last edited by DiapDealer; 02-19-2013 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:39 PM   #18
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Changes/S&R's which can be THAT potentially dangerous/important are always made with a solid working backup in the bag.
Of course they are. Because you're perfect. I'm not.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:43 PM   #19
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Aspire.
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:21 PM   #20
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How do I run Pretty Print manually?
Just found it, in the r-click menu.
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:45 PM   #21
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The .garbage file does nothing to address the fact that if you open a non-well formed EPUB created outside of Sigil (for example you want to fix the file) auto cleaning can potentially cause content to be lost.

Fixing the root cause of the issue that content can be lost is where the focus should be. A .garbage file only works around one possibile situation and doesn't actually solve the issue.

There are only two ways to solve this issue. 1) don't use autoclean because it's un-reliable. 2) Don't autoclean non-well formed files.

I don't like option 2 because you can still have data loss with well-formed content. Which is why I don't like or recommend using Tidy.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:50 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by exaltedwombat View Post
Of course they are. Because you're perfect. I'm not.
ExaltedWombat:

Weren't you one of the folks exhorting for this "save it in whatever bad state it's in" change in the first place, or am I misremembering?

I thought it was a bad idea when I heard it, and I still do. I love much about 7, but not that ecstatic about this bit.

Frankly, I miss the PSO'D (the Pink Screen Of Death). It was a FABULOUS training tool for the habit of saving often. Worked a treat on my newbs. Now they can get away with saving malformed code, which, from my perspective, is not great. I understand the arguments; I just think that this strays dangerously close to "why bother to have an ePUB editor if it's going to act like any old HTML editor, which won't care if your code is crap, either?"

/cranky. I know that the guys can't keep everyone happy. I got a lot in the last two releases that I really love--and Preview rocks--so I'll stop whinging about this one, but...I wish it wasn't in here.

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Old 02-20-2013, 07:53 AM   #23
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ExaltedWombat:

Weren't you one of the folks exhorting for this "save it in whatever bad state it's in" change in the first place, or am I misremembering?
Yes, and I stand by it. There are occasions - maybe rare ones - when being able to suspend a session "as is" will be useful.

The price seems to be giving up automatic Pretty Print (did anyone actually choose automatic HTML Tidy?). No great loss?

But users who have developed an efficient Ctrl-S reflex, and relied on Sigil's refusal to save malformed code as protection against PP messing things up, should be warned and educated. At present the manual recommends enabling auto-PP, and doesn't mention the new ability to save bad code.

All it needs is a warning - "with your current settings, proceeding with Save may change your code".

Last edited by exaltedwombat; 02-20-2013 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:56 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by exaltedwombat View Post
All it needs is a warning - "with your current settings, proceeding with Save may change your code".
This has always been the case. In say 0.5.x if you had an audio tag in a file and that file is well-formed saving would remove the audio tag because auto cleaning runs on save automatically in that version.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:49 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Keep in mind that I don't really see the need to "emergency save" invalid code as being very critical at all (as a Sigil feature). Just throwing out ideas in case such a feature is deemed necessary.
I see the need for it. Let's say you are working on an ePub and you do have invalid code, but you have to leave the computer. You do want to save what you have at that time even if it contains invalid code.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:55 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
ExaltedWombat:

Weren't you one of the folks exhorting for this "save it in whatever bad state it's in" change in the first place, or am I misremembering?

I thought it was a bad idea when I heard it, and I still do. I love much about 7, but not that ecstatic about this bit.

Frankly, I miss the PSO'D (the Pink Screen Of Death). It was a FABULOUS training tool for the habit of saving often. Worked a treat on my newbs. Now they can get away with saving malformed code, which, from my perspective, is not great. I understand the arguments; I just think that this strays dangerously close to "why bother to have an ePUB editor if it's going to act like any old HTML editor, which won't care if your code is crap, either?"

/cranky. I know that the guys can't keep everyone happy. I got a lot in the last two releases that I really love--and Preview rocks--so I'll stop whinging about this one, but...I wish it wasn't in here.

Hitch
But I think that in order to save code that could possibly not be valid, there should be a separate option for that and when that is used, a dialog pops up asking if you are sure you want to do this. I can see the need for this when you don't have the time to fix the code.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:26 AM   #27
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Let's say you are working on an ePub and you do have invalid code, but you have to leave the computer. You do want to save what you have at that time even if it contains invalid code.
No. I don't. I want to go back to the backup I made just before attempting a risky major change. And I don't let minor changes pile up unsaved. Change... verify success... save. If it's important, you learn not rely on features of a program to save your ass. You just don't leave it up to chance. Period.

Now having said that. If this "save my F'd-up code" feature can be accomplished without interfering with my workflow (i.e. not telling me my code was F'd-up and saving it anyway), then go for it. But I consider it a "feature" that I can't save F'd-up code. Anything that allows me even the opportunity to unwittingly save invalid code, I'd consider quite dangerous.

Last edited by DiapDealer; 02-20-2013 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:00 PM   #28
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No. I don't. I want to go back to the backup I made just before attempting a risky major change. And I don't let minor changes pile up unsaved. Change... verify success... save.
That's fine if you start from a valid ePub. But if you start from some invalid crappy code, it may be useful to be able to save before you've finished cleaning up all the mess.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:08 PM   #29
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That's fine if you start from a valid ePub. But if you start from some invalid crappy code, it may be useful to be able to save before you've finished cleaning up all the mess.
My point exactly!
I applaud that Sigil should output clean(er) code.
What it should NOT do is be a traffic cop and prevent saving.

Having a 'Save Anyway' NAG screen:
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:30 PM   #30
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It seems that the idea of a ".garbage" file type would still work. If sigil WON'T save invalid code with an .epub extension and it ONLY saves it as .garbage then there is no way you would get confused when saving. :edit: Just avoid the auto-cleanup if you use ctl-alt-s (or something) and save as a .garbage

The change that is required is on opening:
On opening, check to see if it is a valid epub BEFORE tidy/pretty can have a go at it.
- if it is an .epub file, show a warning box that it is invalid and give the user the OPTION to continue with cleanup or not
- if it is a .garbage file, then show the warning but no need for an option, just open without cleanup

I think that would allow people to save garbage if they absolutely had to, would prevent data loss when opening a badly formed .epub for the first time, and would let us keep the auto cleaning function enabled for normal workflow.

:edit: Doesn't Sigil already do something like this when adding external files?

Last edited by Turtle91; 02-20-2013 at 12:35 PM.
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