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Old 02-18-2013, 09:21 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by GlenBarrington View Post
There are logistical issues to work out, such as how you register and pay for purchases and prevent orders being abandoned, but think about getting an order scanner pen upon entering the bookstore, then as you browse and see a book you want, you just swipe the pen across the bar code. When you are ready to leave, go to the checkout counter and pick up your purchases.

I think impulse purchases would go up in such an environment. It would bring the "click to purchase" spontaneity of the web page as close as possible to a brick and mortar store.
I can imagine chaos, irate customers, and massive waits at busy times .
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:44 AM   #212
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Actually, it kinda does.

The store has to pay rent, it has a lot of employees, it needs liability insurance, it has lots of overhead. Amazon basically needs servers and a few warehouses, and it's infamously demanding on its warehouse staffers. And if they don't have the book in their warehouse, they can usually get it shipped directly from distributors like Baker & Taylor, in a process that's invisible to the buyer.

As so often happens, people underestimate how much it actually costs to run a business.



That's why lots of bookstores have added cafés, non-book items and do author signings.

It doesn't seem to have changed the fundamental dynamic of the shift to online sales.
Some years ago, I went to a bookstore in my home town and discovered that a part of it was actually a bakery/café! I must admit I rather liked the idea.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:47 AM   #213
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We must agree to differ about that. It goes against my personal code of ethics to do that, but if you're comfortable with it, then fine. But don't complain when the shop has to close due to lack of sales .
What about browsing in several stores, then buying in the one that offers the lowest price or the best service? How is that different from browsing both in store and online, then deciding to buy online?
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:01 AM   #214
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I have no problem with paying for services including browsing for books. When I lived in the U.S. I would have paid an annual membership to be a "member" of The Tattered Cover Bookstore in Denver and in the local bookstore, The Stone Lion. I realize some understand that all services and products must be paid for but not by them.

Whether it would be a good business plan or not, I'm not sure. Depends on the management, I think. I can imagine a local bookstore, with rooms for book clubs of members to meet, hosting authors for talks and signing books, hosting creative writing classes, and other services might be able to have a members bookstore with occasional browsers paying.

When I was in a book club we would deliver our list of books to the local bookstore and they would order all the books, bundle them, and sell them to our members at a discount. That's a service I value.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:03 AM   #215
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Ok...so what if you go in to the store to simply look at and touch the physical object, but don't use "the knowledge of a shop"? If I don't talk to a salesperson at the store, is it still wrong? If I go in intending to buy it if the object is comparable in price to the online store, does that make it better? (And I have found things that were the same price or cheaper in store than they were online)
I'd say that's more personal choice and simple comparison shopping than anything ethical or moral.

It just seems wrong to me to take advantage of a shop if you have no intention of buying from it. Just comparing prices, or choosing one shop over another because of better service, better information or whatever is a different thing.

I know when I bought my last TV I did a lot of research online beforehand, but when I eventually went into a shop to buy it (I wanted to be able to see it in action first), I felt it only fair to buy it from the shop despite it being a little cheaper online. But the fact is, it was still competitively priced, if it had been a lot dearer I'd probably have walked out without buying it....

It's all about intent for me..... that's not so bad, so is murder!


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Old 02-18-2013, 11:35 AM   #216
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How about just plain" dishonest"? Unless you tell the salesperson that you already have decided to buy online, you are lying by omission.
So would every information asymmetry be a lie by omission when you go shopping? What I mean is, would it be equally dishonest when the salesperson doesn't disclose to you the store's wholesale price and their standard markup to allow you to negotiate on price properly? Or the fact that they know that they're charging more money than the store down the street?

I view this as "dishonesty" in the same way as players in a game of poker are dishonest; they're all acting on hidden information and the other players are trying to guess what that is while acting on their on hidden information for their own self interest. It's not so much dishonest as much as it is the very nature of the game.

Business owners aren't children; they' don't need to be coddled and protected by reinventing morality.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:37 AM   #217
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I'd say that's more personal choice and simple comparison shopping than anything ethical or moral.

It just seems wrong to me to take advantage of a shop if you have no intention of buying from it. Just comparing prices, or choosing one shop over another because of better service, better information or whatever is a different thing.

I know when I bought my last TV I did a lot of research online beforehand, but when I eventually went into a shop to buy it (I wanted to be able to see it in action first), I felt it only fair to buy it from the shop despite it being a little cheaper online. But the fact is, it was still competitively priced, if it had been a lot dearer I'd probably have walked out without buying it....

It's all about intent for me..... that's not so bad, so is murder!

Sounds like you took advantage of the review and information infrastructure (not to mention bandwidth) of online retailers to do your research with no intention of buying from them. You monster.

I just don't see how the reverse scenario, of using a physical store then buying online is any worse from a morals perspective. Maybe your browsing at a physical store costs that store more money than browsing a physical store, but so what? The physical store setup their business that way, costs and all; it doesn't become a question of morals simply because some arbitrary cost threshold gets crossed.

It seems like people are imputing morality where there is none so they can feel better about their own shopping preferences. Feeling one form of shopping is better than another (shopping in-person vs. online) because it supports local businesses is all good, but saying that preference is morally superior rather than just a preference seems incorrect to me.

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Old 02-18-2013, 06:00 PM   #218
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If I don't talk to a salesperson at the store, is it still wrong?
That isn't the scenario that's been talked about.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:01 PM   #219
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So would every information asymmetry be a lie by omission when you go shopping?
Nobody said that. You're erecting a strawman. It's not a binary equation. There is an infinite range of gray between black and white.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:17 AM   #220
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Sounds like you took advantage of the review and information infrastructure (not to mention bandwidth) of online retailers to do your research with no intention of buying from them. You monster.


But no - I used a review website and forums for most of my research, online retailers were mainly only for a quick price comparison. Though I'm sure I must have read some user reviews on Amazon too, but since they don't pay the tax they should in the UK, my moral standards are intact (well at least in this one instance )!
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:14 AM   #221
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Nobody said that. You're erecting a strawman. It's not a binary equation. There is an infinite range of gray between black and white.
It's not a strawman, it's a question directed at another poster so I can understand where they place the threshold line between right and wrong in the scenario they described. And to quote my new favourite poster (taustin): "If you're not going to read what I've posted, or don't (or can't) understand it, there's no point in trying to have a disccusion [sic] with you."

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Old 02-19-2013, 12:19 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer View Post
It's not a strawman, it's a question directed at another poster so I can understand where they place the threshold line between right and wrong in the scenario they described. And to quote my new favourite poster (taustin): "If you're not going to read what I've posted, or don't (or can't) understand it, there's no point in trying to have a disccusion [sic] with you."
You've been very consistent about answering what people have said with something completely different, and apparently believing it's relevant. This is another example. You're moving the goalpost, whether you realize it or not.

And when you do that, the impression you convey is that you agree with at you're not bothering to answer.

(You do get bonus poinst for the passive/aggressive, childish spelling flame, though.)
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:32 PM   #223
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..., whether you realize it or not.

And when you do that, the impression you convey is...
Maybe we can take a poll, but to me it reads like he's using perfectly valid rhetorical devices and analogies which are being incorrectly labeled by some as logical fallacies. E.g, just because it is possible to make a fallacious reductio ad absurdum argument does not mean that all uses of reductio ad absurdum are fallacious. They are not, and the certainly don't appear to be in ninjalawyer's case. He's not presenting a false dichotomy. He's asking for information on consistency and extent. Similarly, what some are calling a strawman argument reads to me to be an analogy to test rationale.

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Old 02-19-2013, 01:24 PM   #224
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Maybe we can take a poll, but to me it reads like he's using perfectly valid rhetorical devices and analogies which are being incorrectly labeled by some as logical fallacies. E.g, just because it is possible to make a fallacious reductio ad absurdum argument does not mean that all uses of reductio ad absurdum are fallacious. They are not, and the certainly don't appear to be in ninjalawyer's case. He's not presenting a false dichotomy. He's asking for information on consistency and extent. Similarly, what some are calling a strawman argument reads to me to be an analogy to test rationale.

ApK
He's arguing with something nobody actually said. Again.

My premise was that it's possible for someone to reasonably view lookie-loos as being unethical. His response, consistently, has been that I'm wrong because it's possible for such behavior to not be unethical. There is no connection between the two statements. I never said it wasn't possible for it to not be unethical. He's never actually denied that it's possible for it to be unethical.

He's simply not reponding to what I said. He's arguing with what he apparently wishes I'd said instead.

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Old 02-19-2013, 04:09 PM   #225
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He's arguing with something nobody actually said. Again.

My premise was that it's possible for someone to reasonably view lookie-loos as being unethical. His response, consistently, has been that I'm wrong because it's possible for such behavior to not be unethical. There is no connection between the two statements. I never said it wasn't possible for it to not be unethical. He's never actually denied that it's possible for it to be unethical.

He's simply not responding to what I said. He's arguing with what he apparently wishes I'd said instead.
Ah, I see the source of your confusion and I think I can help.

I (mistakenly it seems) thought our discussion was over. You expressed your opinion, I expressed mine, you then suggested I was too stupid to follow your points, at which point I posted a (fairly hilarious, IMHO) picture of Emperor Palpatine. I guess I just assumed that we'd have to agree to disagree about the issue, and whether or not I have the basic reading comprehension skills necessary to follow your points.

The poste above that you responded to with an accusation about a strawman argument was in response to theinfamousj, not to you. I thought that was fairly clear from quoting theinfamousj's post, but that's always easy to miss when you've worked up a full head of steam.

As a bonus apology, I'm sorry you took my accurate quote of yours as a dig against your spelling. In future, I will avoid using "sic" in quoted text, and will bear full responsibility for any and all misspellings in the quote; it's a heavy burden to bear, but I bear it cheerfully to help maintain MobileRead's atmosphere of camaraderie.

As even more compensation to you, I've purposely placed two typos in this post! You may quote those with a "sic" if you wish; I am at your mercy on this one.

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