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Old 02-01-2013, 05:18 PM   #61
meme
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That's what, two jokes in a row? Try my signature

But could you explain this a bit more:
Quote:
I'll not be able to use it when getting rid of the contents link because that's just plain stupid to be in the ncx. I'm already at the ToC, so when then go to another ToC from there?
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:25 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meme View Post
That's what, two jokes in a row? Try my signature

But could you explain this a bit more:
A lot of publisher ePub have both a real ToC and an internal ToC. The real ToC (a lot of the time) will have an entry for this internal ToC. That is plain stupid. I'm already at the ToC. I have no need or desire to go to the internal ToC. So the entry for the internal ToC gets removed. Thus the renumber will happen.
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:56 PM   #63
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You just had to find a way to weasel your "no inline tocs in epubs" crusade into the topic somehow, didn't you? Terrible segue, by the way.
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:26 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
You just had to find a way to weasel your "no inline tocs in epubs" crusade into the topic somehow, didn't you? Terrible segue, by the way.
I was asked to explain and I did.
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:32 PM   #65
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Yeah, I walked into that one...
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:37 PM   #66
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Right click on the TOC window. But remembering the settings between generations is something still to work on.
I just love thes hidden treasures!
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:49 PM   #67
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No, you don't "need" an id if the header is at the top of the file....as it is when you split your book into different files for each chapter. Opening a link to a file automatically displays the top/beginning of the file unless another location is specified.
Thank you. Brilliant!
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:59 PM   #68
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Meme,

I just checked Sigil re the autogeneration of id's for headings not in the TOC. It appears that 6.2 still inserts "sigil_not_in_toc" if you uncheck a box in the TOC editor. Did you mean that it is changed in the new version?

Quote:
<h6 class="sigil_not_in_toc">

{Follow-up} Confirmed - it is still in .7b as well.

Last edited by Turtle91; 02-03-2013 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:44 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
A lot of publisher ePub have both a real ToC and an internal ToC. The real ToC (a lot of the time) will have an entry for this internal ToC. That is plain stupid. I'm already at the ToC. I have no need or desire to go to the internal ToC.
The inline ToC may contain information beyond plain, functional chapter and section references. It may just be styled more prettily! What's the advantage in hiding it?

Last edited by Jellby; 02-09-2013 at 08:02 AM. Reason: fixed markup
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:38 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exaltedwombat View Post
The inline ToC may contain information beyond plain, functional chapter and section references. It may just be styled more prettily! What's the advantage in hiding it?
1) It meets the PC requirement of One Size Fits All [cases]. It is no longer PC to put another book at a disadvantage because you have a fancier TOC than a poorer book has.

2) It makes it fit the required minimalistic style requirement of tiny phone screen readers (along with no fonts, no images, no font-face changes. And No fun. ).

3) It makes the book smaller bytewise so it loads faster. Wait! Advantage? That is not PC
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:42 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exaltedwombat View Post
It may just be styled more prettily! What's the advantage in hiding it?
It's just one of Jon's pet crusades. He hasn't quite figured out that the world isn't populated with clones of himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf
The real ToC (a lot of the time) will have an entry for this internal ToC. That is plain stupid. I'm already at the ToC. I have no need or desire to go to the internal ToC.
Your "needs and desires" remain irrelevant to the presence (or non-presence) of such an entry in the "real" ToC (unless you just can't stop yourself from clicking every single entry in the "real" Toc, of course). Its inclusion in the "real" ToC, in no way, forces you to visit or utilize said "not-real" ToC.

Give. It. A. Rest.
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Old 02-09-2013, 06:55 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
A lot of publisher ePub have both a real ToC and an internal ToC. The real ToC (a lot of the time) will have an entry for this internal ToC. That is plain stupid. I'm already at the ToC. I have no need or desire to go to the internal ToC. So the entry for the internal ToC gets removed. Thus the renumber will happen.
Jon:

With all due respect, since you are not in the business, you're not grasping the real issue here. You are so "html.toc-blind" that you don't get it. Many of us have moved on to "optimized ePUBs" for clients--one book to rule them all, in other words. What this means is that we give an ePUB that will work for iBooks, Nook, Kobo and Amazon, amongst others, to a client. What that means is that the ePUB will, of necessity, have an html.toc. Period. This is the single biggest reason for you to see them.

Moreover, you're making a quantum assumption that every ePUB-platform displays the ncx. Have you tested every device in existence, to be sure that they do? Of course not, because it's not your job and you don't have "every" device in existence, right? What about those devices that don't? You think every reading app does this?

AND, as I'm pretty sure I've mentioned more than once, the use of the ncx as the "real" TOC is going away in ePUB3. The ncx will not be used for navigation; the "real" TOC will be far more an html.toc than an ncx. I know you know this. Therefore, is there some reason we all can't get over the idea that putting an html.toc in an ePUB is some heinous act of betrayal? I mean, for the love of heaven, you HAVE a functioning ncx, right? So you can go wherever you want? What does having the html.toc cost you? A page flip at most? A speck, an iota of annoyance? The ncx cometh, but now it goeth. Them's the breaks in progress. I personally prefer the ncx, for a million reasons, but...shrug. I'm not the IDPF.org. I told you before, you should join over there and raise your voice. Barking about it here is just wasting your breath, so to speak.

And lastly, you are ignoring completely the most compelling reason for a publisher/author to put an html.toc in the book: marketing. A potential reader on Nook or Amazon can't see the ncx TOC entries. But they can see the HTML.toc entries, and be enticed by that. Smart authors can use this to their advantage.

So, unless/until someone comes up with a way for me to make optimized ePUBs with no html.toc in them, that will magically work on Amazon, I expect that you'll keep seeing them in ePUBs. While many of the "conversion" firms out there won't be moving to OE's, many of us will. I mean, why make two books if you can make one?

Just my $.02, FWIW.

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Old 02-10-2013, 07:59 AM   #73
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Thank you for that, Hitch!

I cannot imagine an e-book without an actual (html) TOC. While it's true that novels didn't always (or even most of the time) have a table of contents, that has been changing over the past several years--in large part, I think, because of e-books. First, the TOC is a great sales tool in Look Inside on the Amazon store. Second, you can't dog-ear an e-book page, or fold in the dustcover end flap, or even put your finger there where you left off. And the synching option doesn't always or even most of the time actually synch to the Last Page Read (or you have messed it up by checking an endnote). So the Go To / TOC function is really incredibly valuable in a Kindle.

So I too have settled upon the one format fits all approach to e-book publishing: an epub, built by Sigil, that includes a cover, an actual/html TOC, and an NCX file. Following your advice, I have acquired a Nook, and my books look fine on the B&N platform, as they do on the iPad, iPhone, e-ink Kindle, and Fire. I don't publish on the Sony platform, so I don't worry about the Sony Reader. Kobo doesn't sell enough books for me to justify buying a Kobo reader (I would buy a Paperwhite first) so I am leaving that to fate.
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:22 PM   #74
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you can't dog-ear an e-book page
I can on my 650.

Last edited by pdurrant; 02-10-2013 at 05:07 PM. Reason: fixed quote tag
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:19 AM   #75
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Thank you for that, Hitch!

I cannot imagine an e-book without an actual (html) TOC. While it's true that novels didn't always (or even most of the time) have a table of contents, that has been changing over the past several years--in large part, I think, because of e-books. First, the TOC is a great sales tool in Look Inside on the Amazon store. Second, you can't dog-ear an e-book page, or fold in the dustcover end flap, or even put your finger there where you left off. And the synching option doesn't always or even most of the time actually synch to the Last Page Read (or you have messed it up by checking an endnote). So the Go To / TOC function is really incredibly valuable in a Kindle.

So I too have settled upon the one format fits all approach to e-book publishing: an epub, built by Sigil, that includes a cover, an actual/html TOC, and an NCX file. Following your advice, I have acquired a Nook, and my books look fine on the B&N platform, as they do on the iPad, iPhone, e-ink Kindle, and Fire. I don't publish on the Sony platform, so I don't worry about the Sony Reader. Kobo doesn't sell enough books for me to justify buying a Kobo reader (I would buy a Paperwhite first) so I am leaving that to fate.
nj:

I'm pleased that it has worked out for you. For a long time there, I despaired that I would ever make an ePUB convert out of you, but I'm glad to see you here. I find it far easier to make beautiful ePUBs and convert them to mobi, than to make two books.

With regard to dog-earing, though, I would disagree with you, as I am 99% sure that I can bookmark in all the devices I have, but I am certainly not an expert on every device out there. But I can in the Fire, the K2, the PPW, the K3, the iPad iBooks app, the FF ePUBreader (I think), and the Nook and NookColor. I think that all the current Sonys allow bookmarking. I don't know about most e-reading apps for, say, Droid, etc.

That's all I had to add!

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