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Old 01-28-2013, 02:02 AM   #46
tubemonkey
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Thank you for your constructive and thoughtful comments. I lay prostrate, bowled over by the intellectual juggernaut that is your argument.
Hey, I'm a monkey. What did you expect?
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:06 AM   #47
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Hey, I'm a monkey. What did you expect?
To be pelted with poo.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:22 AM   #48
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(...) because e-books don't wear out so they should never, ever expire and they should certainly cost less than paper books.
I haven't read all the discussions about this subject, but as far as I've read, no one is saying that the books should not expire and at the same time cost less than paperbacks.

I said in my last post in this thread that I see no harm in ebooks being more expensive than paperbooks if the library are allowed to treat the paperbook and the ebook the same way, i.e. interlibrary loans and eternal use. This would save the library a good deal of money, and that money should go to the publishers. Such a deal would be worth paying a premium to the publisher.

Or, if the book has to expire, it has to be rediculously cheap since the book must be re-purchased every second year, providing a steady income for the publisher.

Paying a large sum* for a book that expires doesn't make sense, and will lead to a poorer service and poorer selection as a lot of older books will expire and not be renewed.
*even $25 is a large sum to keep a book for only two years! A hardbound book costs the same and lasts much longer than two years!

You do remember that after two years the licence expires whether the 52 loans are reached or not, right? For unpopular books that gets checked out once a year this is expensive, so the libraries will not renew these books, and older books will(!) disappear from the system. That would be a disaster, since the publishers don't care a damn about preservation, and cannot be supposed to pay for preserving their books! As you yourself say, publishers do what they must to make money, everything else is not their priority. That's why we have libraries.

What we are saying isn't that books shall be free or that books shall be available to everyone, exactly where they want it, and exectly when they want it. But the libraries need to retain their independence from the publishers. The libraries are supposed to make books available after the book has disappeared from the market and preserve out cultural heritage, and we must make sure that they can do that.

I'm not saying that the libraries should be allowed to do what they want with ebooks in the first couple of years when the publisher is earning back the money they've invested in a book. But it is important that the libraries get a copy of the epub or mobi or whatever, and that they have the right to do what they want with the file after a while when this particular book gets harder and harder to find!

Last edited by Iznogood; 01-28-2013 at 03:25 AM.
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Old 01-28-2013, 05:47 AM   #49
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Hey, I'm a monkey....
a monkey with a brain apparently.
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:19 AM   #50
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a monkey with a brain apparently.
I believe all monkeys, perhaps even the tubesock specie, are fully equipped with brains, very similar to our own.
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:21 AM   #51
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and yet.....
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:35 AM   #52
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Warning:
Tubemonkey: Don't look.

Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kumabjorn View Post
I believe all monkeys, perhaps even the tubesock specie, are fully equipped with brains, very similar to our own.
Monkeys do indeed have brains. Very tasty ones as well

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Old 01-28-2013, 06:54 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Iznogood View Post
Warning:
Tubemonkey: Don't look.

Spoiler:



Monkeys do indeed have brains. Very tasty ones as well

I just knew it was gonna be a scene from Indiana Jones
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:55 AM   #54
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Yes, it was rather obvious
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:14 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBilly View Post
I'm seeing a lot of "damned if they do, damned if they don't."
It may seem so.
Until you factor in this is coming from Macmillan. You know, the company that thinks consumers are so stupid that raising prices *another* 10% above the Agency Price Fix so that retailers "can discount" their books by 10% (be still my beating heart!) is a valid response to the complaints about their illegal conspiracy.
They repeatedly shown their contempt for consumers and the DOJ.
This scheme shows clear contempt for the library operators.
Their hostility towards consumers is well-established so a critical reception focusing on the hidden gotchas is not unwarranted.

Now, if this were coming from a new administration one might assume it is a misguided attempt to get into libraries but coming from somebody with their track record, the more likely explanation is malice, not incompetence.

Context matters.
And Sargent has thoroughly poisoned their well of "credibility".
Another publisher might get the benefit of the doubt but not Macmillan.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:36 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by fjtorres View Post
It may seem so.
Until you factor in this is coming from Macmillan. You know, the company that thinks consumers are so stupid that raising prices *another* 10% above the Agency Price Fix so that retailers "can discount" their books by 10% (be still my beating heart!) is a valid response to the complaints about their illegal conspiracy.
They repeatedly shown their contempt for consumers and the DOJ.
This scheme shows clear contempt for the library operators.
Their hostility towards consumers is well-established so a critical reception focusing on the hidden gotchas is not unwarranted.

Now, if this were coming from a new administration one might assume it is a misguided attempt to get into libraries but coming from somebody with their track record, the more likely explanation is malice, not incompetence.

Context matters.
And Sargent has thoroughly poisoned their well of "credibility".
Another publisher might get the benefit of the doubt but not Macmillan.
Agreed.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:47 AM   #57
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I highly recommended Mr. Penumbra's 24 Hour Bookstore on another list - people were coming back saying that there were more than 50 holds in front of them for it. 52 borrowings won't see a popular book like this through the year. That can get awfully expensive for cash-strapped library systems.
That's odd because Mr Penumbra's 24 Hour Bookstore (published by FSG, owned by Macmillan) is not available for libraries in the US to purchase (except as audiobook). Which is really the heart of this debate: which is worse, not making books available to libraries at all, or making them available for expensive and limited terms?
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:54 AM   #58
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Oh, sorry library, library....
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:55 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by fjtorres View Post
It may seem so.
Until you factor in this is coming from Macmillan. You know, the company that thinks consumers are so stupid that raising prices *another* 10% above the Agency Price Fix so that retailers "can discount" their books by 10% (be still my beating heart!) is a valid response to the complaints about their illegal conspiracy.
They repeatedly shown their contempt for consumers and the DOJ.
This scheme shows clear contempt for the library operators.
Their hostility towards consumers is well-established so a critical reception focusing on the hidden gotchas is not unwarranted.

Now, if this were coming from a new administration one might assume it is a misguided attempt to get into libraries but coming from somebody with their track record, the more likely explanation is malice, not incompetence.

Context matters.
And Sargent has thoroughly poisoned their well of "credibility".
Another publisher might get the benefit of the doubt but not Macmillan.
I had absolutely no idea. Is this their track record in general?
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:00 AM   #60
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I had absolutely no idea. Is this their track record in general?
Yes. Ever since the idea for Agency Pricing came to him in an epiphanic vision while on his treadmill (all by his lonesome), anyway.
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