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Old 01-10-2013, 06:44 PM   #76
forsooth
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could plug cellphone jack into plug on arm of seat on phone
no RF required
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:04 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by DianNC View Post
As Tubemonkey said in an earlier post, the potential for disaster is either there or it's not.
With all due respect, no it isn't. The potential for disaster is always there. When you fool yourself into thinking you brought risk to zero, the risk of disaster is higher.

Blood alcohol level 0.040 percent -- fit to fly
Blood alcohol level 0.041 percent -- no way partner

Does anyone really believe there is a limit below which impairment is, for every pilot, always zero? You could say -- only hire and retain those with no measurable blood alcohol. But then you would lose many unusually outstanding pilots.

What is the maximum crosswind allowed for takeoff or landing? That's a lot more complicated than the blood alcohol limit, but, again, the thinking is matter of degree, not safe/unsafe. It's a balancing act where if the runway is a little bit slushy, the maximum allowed crosswind for that aircraft type goes down. Everything is a tradeoff. No risk is zero. Reducing risks of RF interference is not all or nothing, just like many other air safety measures.

Here's a quick PDF that, in how it is worded, gives a feel for the idea that reducing risks, rather than eliminating them, is normal air safety practice:

http://www.usbr.gov/ssle/damsafety/j.../19Azevedo.pdf

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Old 01-11-2013, 06:27 AM   #78
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Yes the potential for disastrous posts is strong in this one.
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:28 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by tubemonkey View Post
I quit flying after 9/11 because of the idiotic security rules they put in place. Ever since then, my vacations have been local.

Personally, I don't care what rules they implement. They don't affect me, so it's not my problem.
Yep, I haven't flown since prior to that actually...
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:29 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
Please forgive me if I've misinterpreted, but are you saying that you think the rules concerning electronic devices (the subject of this thread) are idiotic, or are you referring to the many other rules introduced post 9/11?

If the former: why? What's idiotic about them?

/JB
Yes.



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Old 01-11-2013, 08:14 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by kennyc View Post
Yes.

.
So in what way do you think they're idiotic? Do you believe there is no risk (in which case on what science are you basing that assertion?) or do you believe there is risk but the rules are being implemented badly?

/JB
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:38 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forsooth View Post
could plug cellphone jack into plug on arm of seat on phone
no RF required
This wouldn't eliminate the transmission of electromagnetic energy. Just running electricity through a device will give off some emission.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:18 PM   #83
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Again, if these devices truly posed a safety risk, the FAA would ban them. After all, what guarantee does the flight crew have that all devices have been turned off?
exactly this has been bogus for years.
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Old 01-13-2013, 01:08 AM   #84
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exactly this has been bogus for years.
Not according to the Airbus and Boeing engineers and executives I worked with on projects in this area - devices that generate EM radiation, including RF, on commercial aircraft. Both companies conduct many many tests on every aircraft model, both for new designs and old ones, to try to avoid future incidents.

Both companies have found issues with outside EMI affecting their aircrafts' systems, sometimes dangerously. The most common problem was interference with in-flight entertainment systems; that merely irritates some passengers. More serious issues were interference with air-to-ground communication, and interference with instrumentation and flight control systems. I can assure you that pilots have had issues during landing due to consumer electronics in use by passengers.

For some insight into how hard it is to test for problems, consider these machines are crammed with wiring of all sorts running though many places, including below and above the passenger areas. A particular device may interfere only when in use around the area of a single seat, or a dozen seats scattered seemingly at random throughout the aircraft. A device may interfere only when in a specific orientation. A device may interfere only after it has been damaged in use, altering its EMI characteristics (even though it still works). The device may only interfere when signals are being send over a specific bus - not everything is in constant use. Those are reasons why the guy who said 200 iPods are the same as 2 is wrong; and, given his job, should know better, unless he was quoted out of context.

Somene mentioned plugging into some onboard system. This involves a wire. Wires are basically antennae, and they both receive and transmit. Mouse cords, USB cables, etc. all generate potentially problematic noise.

The specific limitation on takeoff and landing is because those are the most dangerous times in flying. A malfunction then gives the crew very little time, just a few seconds, to solve the problem or work around it. Once you are at 30k+ feet, you have more time to get things sorted out, so the risk is less.

If you know what you are doing, you can consistently cause real issues on at least some models of commercial aircraft, using only items that you are allowed to carry on board (I'm not talkng about someone's iPhone).

Most of the time, the things people argue over in life have no safety consequences. Having and espousing an uninformed opinion is fairly harmless. I wish people would pause to think: Do I really know anything about this subject? and: Are people's lives possibly at risk? And when the answers are "No" and "Yes", just say nothing - keep your opinion to yourself. But people of course won't do that. The blog author showed extremely poor judgement.

On a practical level, though, the answer is different. Commercial flight is very safe, at least in most countries. People ignore the rules and nothing permanently bad happens on almost every flight, thousands of times a day. So the risk, although present, is very small.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:36 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derangedhermit View Post
Most of the time, the things people argue over in life have no safety consequences. Having and espousing an uninformed opinion is fairly harmless. I wish people would pause to think: Do I really know anything about this subject? and: Are people's lives possibly at risk? And when the answers are "No" and "Yes", just say nothing - keep your opinion to yourself. But people of course won't do that.
Well said.

Sadly, we live in a culture where understanding of a topic is no longer a prerequisite for having and announcing an opinion.

There are areas where the right answer is down to personal taste, and where everyone's opinion is of equal merit, but in a deeply technical subject such as this one, expressing an opinion without an understanding of EM emissions and immunity, electronics and avionics systems is simply wrong and it genuinely surprises me how many people feel that ignorance of these areas doesn't limit the value of their opinions.

/JB
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:43 AM   #86
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Well said.

Sadly, we live in a culture where understanding of a topic is no longer a prerequisite for having and announcing an opinion.
....

/JB
Yes so very true. As an Electrical Engineer and Amateur and Commercial licensee for over 40 years I'm appalled at all the ignorant posts and intentionally misleading krap that gets air time.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:25 AM   #87
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Yes so very true. As an Electrical Engineer and Amateur and Commercial licensee for over 40 years I'm appalled at all the ignorant posts and intentionally misleading krap that gets air time.
And as an electronic engineer (admittedly only for 30 years) who has designed avionics systems (military and civilian) and consumer electronics I'm similarly disturbed by the ignorance displayed.

As a qualified engineer, if you believe that free-for-all use of consumer electronics on an aircraft is safe, I assume you'll be able to provide technical arguments and references to tests which have shown it to be safe.

As I've said before - I suspect that it can be made safe, and at some point in the not too distant future enough work will have been done to allow more freedom. Until that work is done, however, I've spent far too much time in EM test chambers to just accept that it's safe because Joe Public feels like it should be.

In short - I'm willing to be convinced, but convincing me will require a technical argument and evidence of testing, rather than a series of unsubstantiated assertions with no reasoning to back them up.

Convince me! What is your reasoning, and where is your evidence!

/JB
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:37 AM   #88
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It appears something new has come from this latest round of dead-horse-flogging:
Quote:
They want people paying attention during the safety briefing and able to respond to instructions if any are given, not really to do with interference anymore.
Sad thing is; I can actually see someone in authority trying to employ this ridiculous CYA/diversionary/history-rewriting tactic.

"Interference?!? What interference? It's never been about the interference!"

I'm glad I finally perused this thread.

Last edited by DiapDealer; 01-13-2013 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:08 AM   #89
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Yes so very true. As an Electrical Engineer and Amateur and Commercial licensee for over 40 years I'm appalled at all the ignorant posts and intentionally misleading krap that gets air time.
My comments are based merely on common sense. If there were even a remote chance why would the faa let you even have any electronic devices on an airplane at all?
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:27 AM   #90
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/////
Convince me! What is your reasoning, and where is your evidence!

/JB
It's impossible to convince someone who has already made up their mind.

My PROOF is in the science.

If you really are an electrical engineer then you know it. You're just making excuses for your BELIEFS and for remote possibilities -- such as being hit by a meteor.
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