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Old 08-14-2008, 04:24 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jordan View Post
Regarding the resources used in paper production, it should not be overlooked that not only are large quantities of electricity required in running a paper production plant, but that there are enormous quantities of water-based chemicals used in the processing of most paper products. Most of these chemicals are toxic, many of them are non-bio-degradable, and most of them are just dumped back into the local water sources after use, making them a significant source of water pollution.

When you combine all of that with the production of one e-book reader, which is capable of replacing potentially hundreds to even thousands of books, the economy of scale and conservation of resources tips very strongly in favor of e-books.

That seems an argument that some don't wish to equate into the cost of producing a paper-version of a book... transport costs, especially these days, must be significant.
Not only for the finished book itself, but starting the whole process from tree-felling/paper-recycling through to ink manufacture; factor in staff costs associated with these....
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Old 08-14-2008, 04:28 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jordan View Post
When you combine all of that with the production of one e-book reader, which is capable of replacing potentially hundreds to even thousands of books, the economy of scale and conservation of resources tips very strongly in favor of e-books.
Also true - but while it is possible to keep and productively use an ebook reader for many, many years (provided it doesn't break down), _generally_ speaking these gadgets rarely last for more than a few years, while a good book generally lasts a for long time. I doubt many of the current-day ebook readers will see more than 5 years of use.

And I have no idea whether these book readers use uncommon or rare materials - trees are self-replenishing (when done right). And of course these ebook readers also have to be transported (raw materials mined and shipped, half-products fabricated and shipped, final product assembled and shipped, store shipping). It is interesting to ponder these relative costs - but I find it hard to see a clear winner - so many factors.

Last edited by acidzebra; 08-14-2008 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 08-14-2008, 04:34 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acidzebra View Post
Also true - but while it is possible to keep and productively use an ebook reader for many, many years (provided it doesn't break down), _generally_ speaking these gadgets rarely last for more than a few years, while a good book generally lasts a for long time. I doubt many of the current-day ebook readers will see more than 5 years of use.

And I have no idea whether these book readers use uncommon or rare materials - trees are self-replenishing (when done right).
Don't forget, e-book readers, like other computers, can also be recycled and their components largely reused. Obviously, if the technology and SW becomes more standardized, we should see readers with even longer lifespans.
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Old 08-14-2008, 04:37 PM   #64
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Quote:
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Don't forget, e-book readers, like other computers, can also be recycled and their components largely reused.
If by reused you mean chucked in a landfill in Africa I would agree - statistics on recycling of high-tech goods are depressing. And I seriously doubt hardware manufacturers have incentive to create longer-lasting gadgets
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Old 08-14-2008, 04:46 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffC View Post
That seems an argument that some don't wish to equate into the cost of producing a paper-version of a book... transport costs, especially these days, must be significant.
Not only for the finished book itself, but starting the whole process from tree-felling/paper-recycling through to ink manufacture; factor in staff costs associated with these....
The blatant ignoring of "incidental costs" (like the impacts of pollution and costs of cleanup related to a product, service or factory) is an American tradition that is long overdue for rethinking. Paper production has heavy water usage and polluting costs that few outside the industry know about, and no one inside the industry wants to mention. If they were ever held accountable for those costs, the cost of paper would probably skyrocket...
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Old 08-14-2008, 04:47 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jordan View Post
The blatant ignoring of "incidental costs" (like the impacts of pollution and costs of cleanup related to a product, service or factory) is an American tradition that is long overdue for rethinking. Paper production has heavy water usage and polluting costs that few outside the industry know about, and no one inside the industry wants to mention. If they were ever held accountable for those costs, the cost of paper would probably skyrocket...

say no more ...
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Old 08-14-2008, 04:48 PM   #67
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I agree with acidzebra, the electronic waste disposal is a tragedy that would even make rambo cry. And that is sad.

However I disagree that there would be some narrow "tie" between eBooks and paper-books in respect to sustainability. You can sell an eBook arbitrarily many times without having to consider gathering new resources/reprinting/transporting.
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Old 08-14-2008, 04:48 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acidzebra View Post
If by reused you mean chucked in a landfill in Africa I would agree - statistics on recycling of high-tech goods are depressing.
That does not mean they can't get better: Like other recycling efforts worldwide, there's still lots of room for improvement, and great potential for cutting back waste.
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Old 08-14-2008, 04:55 PM   #69
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However I disagree that there would be some narrow "tie" between eBooks and paper-books in respect to sustainability. You can sell an eBook arbitrarily many times without having to consider gathering new resources/reprinting/transporting.
I might have worded it incorrectly - I mean I can't see it. There are too many hidden costs that I can't see and factors I can't calculate. Steve made some good points about pollution, but I don't see how they wouldn't apply to the heavy industry needed to produce high-tech electronics just the same. I don't know a lot about either.

I do agree that in a world where everyone has access to a ebook reader (oh, fabjous day! Callooh! Callay!) ebooks would be a clear winner for their infinite duplication with near-zero cost trait that you've mention. But even in a best-case scenario ebook readers will be a niche market for a long time to come, IMHO.

Quote:
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That does not mean they can't get better: Like other recycling efforts worldwide, there's still lots of room for improvement, and great potential for cutting back waste.
For many of the more complex components the resources used to create them would have to become extremely scarce for it to be cost-effective to recycle them, and cost-effectiveness and/or scarcity is the only way you are going to get large corporations to do something there. The frames and large homogeneous parts are obviously much easier to recycle.

Last edited by acidzebra; 08-14-2008 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:08 PM   #70
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This is part two of two regarding fiber systems; in the course FFR101 - Sustainable use of resources given at Chalmers University of Technology (link to syllabus). It has some interesting numbers on paper use etc.
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:13 PM   #71
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Hi eBookReaders welcome to MobiRead,

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebookreaders View Post
Ebooks is cheaper to produce
Not completely true. Even without the costs for printing, you still have costs for editing, proofreading, designing, marketing et cetera. Most of the time, the smaller part of the costs ...
Well I'm not in the publishing industry so I'll take your word at face value. However there are some additional cost to pBooks that you omitted in your post above. Such as transportation, storage, inventory cost, shelf space that eat into the profits made by selling physical books.
eBooks do not have such costs after production.

I've heard serveral publishers argue this point but not one has commented that they are giving the full printing discount to the eBook customer. My question to you is are you giving us the full discount?

As for conversion tools. I'll invite you to look at this site uploaded eBooks. Typeically there are three formats of each book are typically stored. SONY(lrf), Mobi, and eReader. All are based off of HTML and it is quite trivial to convert between each format. It takes me no more that a push of a button to convert between LIT/MOBI/SONY/eReader.

Quote:
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Additionally, please let me underline that most of the time, it's the authors that don't want us to make their book available in electronic form. They fear that it will be illegaly copied or that others can somehow alter their texts. Of course it takes time and we show ebook readers to our authors to convince them, but it's still very difficult.
This is sad but true.

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Last edited by =X=; 08-14-2008 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Fixed quotation error
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Old 08-24-2008, 06:17 PM   #72
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TomBolini just told me that they are coming up with an italian website where there's a form for writing to the publisher. They have a preliminary site up, and are in wait for a new domain:

Message from TomBolini:
http://montefusco.aulavirtuale.it/in...ppl_ebook.html

with a caveat: we just registered the domain DILLOALLEDITORE.ORG (tellthepublisher), and waiting for it to launch the application.

Well done !!!

Last edited by haridasi; 08-25-2008 at 03:34 AM.
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Old 08-24-2008, 07:05 PM   #73
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that's absolutely brilliant !

ah, but haridasi, your link is broken. the url seems to be incomplete.
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Old 08-25-2008, 03:35 AM   #74
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that's absolutely brilliant !

ah, but haridasi, your link is broken. the url seems to be incomplete.
hmm.. how did that happen?

Anyway, I've fixed it now
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Old 08-30-2008, 09:15 AM   #75
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Tombolini informed me that the italian site http://www.dilloalleditore.org is not up and running. Well done Tombolini !
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