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Old 11-19-2012, 02:03 PM   #61
Quexos
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Oh man, there we go again, the piracy debate ...

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I wouldn't consider breaking DRM in order to make it available as a torrent "personal use".
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:45 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
I wouldn't consider breaking DRM in order to make it available as a torrent "personal use".
no, nor would most, though I'm sure there are some. I have _zero_ qualms about stripping DRM from the books I've bought. That's just good common sense to enable archival backups, etc. In fact, I virtually never send a book directly to my Kindle. I pull it down to my PC, clean it up, load into Calibre, and only then do I put it on my Kindle.

Putting it up in a public place for others to read? No, that would not seem fair and I wouldn't do it.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:00 AM   #63
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Since my DRM removal software continues to work in spite of these laws I will continue to strip DRM as necessary.

The format shifting provision does mean that it is legal to scan books and create ebooks. No DRM removal is involved (although the poor print quality of some paperbacks might be construed as DRM by some.)

This legislation is just asking for a court challenge. We have all these rights and the the DRM provision then invalidates them. A clever lawyer might have some fun there.

The Canadian government has been under attack by American and international media cartels for quite a while now. It is significant that the legislation did not change the current copyright term of life life plus 50 years. Steamboat Willie remains public domain in Canada!
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:47 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Catlady View Post
And you also have to weigh the potential for getting caught. There's very little likelihood of ever being caught stripping DRM for your own use.
Gee, that would make DRM stripping the exact same as getting content through sneaker net.
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:33 AM   #65
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I would like to share a quote from Heinlein that might be applicable here:

"I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

O.K., one more concerning morals:

"Correct morality can only be derived from what man is — not from what do-gooders and well-meaning aunt Nellies would like him to be."

I live by many things I have read in Heinlein's books mostly because they reflect how I feel and what I believe. Many involve either ignoring or fighting against repressive rules, laws, and ideas that only serve the ones that created them.

I wish that the authors and creators of all forms of art controlled the manner in which they are published to the general public and thus eliminated the middlemen who really have nothing to do with the creative process and have only insinuated themselves there to create and increase profits for themselves. I know what you are thinking, I should wish into one hand, defecate into the other and see which one fills up first, but hey, I can dream.

Ken
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:30 PM   #66
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We can all dream

I don't think that publishers have insinuated themselves though. For many years they provided services that writers could not afford to provide for themselves.

Primarily IMO the actual production of the physical books in enough quantity to make a profit. What author could buy their own presses, bind their own books, without spending a lot more money on equipment alone than they could hope to realize on even 20 books. Then there is the cost of employees to operate the presses etc.

Publishers evolved from printers and bookbinders by providing other services like editing, distribution, publicity etc. and eventually became a controlling force. But I don't see that as insinuating themselves, just a common business practice such as that provided by stores, dairys, and most merchants/manufacturers.

A frozen food manufacturer buys meat/vegetables from a farmer or consortium of farmers, processes it, squishes it out in small uniform portions onto plastic trays, encloses it in a fancy cardboard box and sells it a hell of a lot more than the farmer gets. How is this measurably different?

I know ebooks cost less to produce, but if we had epotatoes and echicken, would you expect someone to cook it up, make it look nice and distribute it at cost or less?

Helen
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:16 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speakingtohe View Post
We can all dream

I don't think that publishers have insinuated themselves though. For many years they provided services that writers could not afford to provide for themselves.

Primarily IMO the actual production of the physical books in enough quantity to make a profit. What author could buy their own presses, bind their own books, without spending a lot more money on equipment alone than they could hope to realize on even 20 books. Then there is the cost of employees to operate the presses etc.

Publishers evolved from printers and bookbinders by providing other services like editing, distribution, publicity etc. and eventually became a controlling force. But I don't see that as insinuating themselves, just a common business practice such as that provided by stores, dairys, and most merchants/manufacturers.

A frozen food manufacturer buys meat/vegetables from a farmer or consortium of farmers, processes it, squishes it out in small uniform portions onto plastic trays, encloses it in a fancy cardboard box and sells it a hell of a lot more than the farmer gets. How is this measurably different?

I know ebooks cost less to produce, but if we had epotatoes and echicken, would you expect someone to cook it up, make it look nice and distribute it at cost or less?

Helen
Agreed, middlemen do provide a valuable service in most industries, including in publishing. Besides, every author is free to go it alone if he or she so chooses. That wouldn't necessarily that prices go down, especially if a book is being actively promoted by the author. The only thing we don't want is price fixing cartels like we had with the "agency model".

Last edited by HansTWN; 11-26-2012 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:15 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speakingtohe View Post
I know ebooks cost less to produce, but if we had epotatoes and echicken, would you expect someone to cook it up, make it look nice and distribute it at cost or less?
No. We do, however, expect them to NOT charge the same as physical books and pocket the savings (physical manufacture, transportation, and storage) as extra profit (which is what most currently do).
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:24 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by JD Gumby View Post
No. We do, however, expect them to NOT charge the same as physical books and pocket the savings (physical manufacture, transportation, and storage) as extra profit (which is what most currently do).
Don't forget that they subsidize the cost of the reading devices now. And they charge what the market will pay. If you start a new job do you tell your boss: "This place is closer to my home than the last place I worked at, please deduct $100.- from my pay each month."

Personally, when the ebook costs more than the pbook I usually don't buy either. That is the only protest that works.

Last edited by HansTWN; 11-26-2012 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:47 AM   #70
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Don't forget that they subsidize the cost of the reading devices now.
Who is they?
The publishers don't subside the cost of reading devices.
Amazon/B&N etc do, but that comes out of their 30% cut.
And no-one subsidised the cost of the iPad I use for some of my reading.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:20 AM   #71
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Who is they?
The publishers don't subside the cost of reading devices.
Amazon/B&N etc do, but that comes out of their 30% cut.
And no-one subsidised the cost of the iPad I use for some of my reading.
Yes, Amazon and B&N do. Why don't they count? And you made the decision not to read on a subsidized device, can't blame anyone for that, can you? That is just like signing up for a phone company's plan, paying the same monthly charges as everyone else, and then not getting a cheap or free phone. It is you who chooses not to take advantage of what they offer.

Last edited by HansTWN; 11-27-2012 at 06:23 AM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:41 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by HansTWN View Post
Don't forget that they subsidize the cost of the reading devices now. And they charge what the market will pay. If you start a new job do you tell your boss: "This place is closer to my home than the last place I worked at, please deduct $100.- from my pay each month."

Personally, when the ebook costs more than the pbook I usually don't buy either. That is the only protest that works.
In protest I would sure love to tell publishers that although I have no problem paying the exorbitant amount they charge for a hard copy of a book here in Canada I will shamelessly download the digital copy of that same book because they should be supplying it for free with the hard copy. I will not, however, get a free digital copy of a book I didn't first buy in hard copy. I'm pretty sure my favorite authors will stop writing if they don't get paid for their work.

Did you hear that Daniel Woodrell??? I may be late in doing so but I've bought everything you wrote now get busy and write some more Rene Shade stories! I'm jonesin' for more bayou!
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:49 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by CRussel View Post
no, nor would most, though I'm sure there are some. I have _zero_ qualms about stripping DRM from the books I've bought. That's just good common sense to enable archival backups, etc. In fact, I virtually never send a book directly to my Kindle. I pull it down to my PC, clean it up, load into Calibre, and only then do I put it on my Kindle.
I couldn't even read books I bought from Amazon on all my devices. Nor books I bought from BoB or bol.com. Or books I cannot download anymore because the original seller doesn't have them anymore or is himself gone.

In the end, it's their own fault that I am practically forced to remove DRM to even enjoy the book.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:01 AM   #74
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When publishers hardcode a font into an ebook that is faint and make the margins ridiculously huge so that you must remove DRM to have control over the formatting in order to read the book without duress, it surely must fall under "DRM removal for personal use". If the cops show up at my door to charge me for doing so, I'll point them to the suspected grow-op down the street and hope that arresting them might be a slightly more worthwhile use of public funds.
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