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Old 11-26-2012, 11:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itimpi View Post
A point that has not been made anywhere is that in XHTML (which is what epub and mobi are based on) tab characters have no effect on the layout - they are simply whitespace and are treated like spaces. Also multiple whitespace characters (e.g. tab, space, newline) are condensed to a single space for display purposes. This is why you have to use styles or something equivalent to control layout.
Thanks for clarifying the non indent tabs talked about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Lurker View Post
There were a few comments in your reply that suggest you might be starting to grasp my problem... but if I'm not mistaken, your response is basically, "Yeah, that's how Calibre works." In other words, you're merely acknowledging the limitations of Calibre without offering any possible work-arounds.
I could be 100% mistaken since I don't use rtf, but I believe I understand your problem and for the most part it is self inflicted. I provided you a solution which you never acknowledged trying. And yes, having calibre remove all paragraph spacing and insert indents on every paragraph is a giant alteration of a ebook that does come with limitations inherent in calibre.

You could do as Kovid suggested and save the rtf as web paged filtered then convert to mobi making sure you have a neg value under the indent size so calibre doesn't change your indents (see attached).

If you don't want calibre to change your paragraph indents during conversion then quit telling calibre to change your paragraph indents.

If you think this is a bug, submit a bug report.
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Last edited by DoctorOhh; 11-26-2012 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:43 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie_w View Post

[Added:] These were the conversion options used
Spoiler:
Code:
Convert book 1 of 1 (RTF test)
Resolved conversion options
calibre version: 0.9.4
{'asciiize': False,
 'author_sort': None,
 'authors': None,
 'base_font_size': 12.0,
 'book_producer': None,
 'change_justification': u'original',
 'chapter': u'//h:h2|//h:h3',
 'chapter_mark': u'pagebreak',
 'comments': None,
 'cover': None,
 'debug_pipeline': None,
 'dehyphenate': True,
 'delete_blank_paragraphs': True,
 'disable_font_rescaling': False,
 'dont_compress': False,
 'duplicate_links_in_toc': False,
 'embed_font_family': None,
 'enable_heuristics': False,
 'extra_css': None,
 'extract_to': None,
 'filter_css': u'',
 'fix_indents': True,
 'font_size_mapping': u'9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16, 20, 36',
 'format_scene_breaks': True,
 'html_unwrap_factor': 0.4,
 'input_encoding': None,
 'input_profile': <calibre.customize.profiles.InputProfile object at 0x038B14D0>,
 'insert_blank_line': False,
 'insert_blank_line_size': 0.5,
 'insert_metadata': False,
 'isbn': None,
 'italicize_common_cases': True,
 'keep_ligatures': False,
 'language': None,
 'level1_toc': u'//h:h2',
 'level2_toc': u'//h:h3',
 'level3_toc': None,
 'line_height': 0.0,
 'linearize_tables': False,
 'margin_bottom': -1.0,
 'margin_left': -1.0,
 'margin_right': -1.0,
 'margin_top': -1.0,
 'markup_chapter_headings': True,
 'max_toc_links': 0,
 'minimum_line_height': 0.0,
 'mobi_file_type': u'old',
 'mobi_ignore_margins': False,
 'mobi_keep_original_images': False,
 'mobi_toc_at_start': False,
 'no_chapters_in_toc': False,
 'no_inline_navbars': False,
 'no_inline_toc': False,
 'output_profile': <calibre.customize.profiles.SonyReaderOutput object at 0x038B1990>,
 'page_breaks_before': u'/',
 'personal_doc': u'[PDOC]',
 'prefer_author_sort': False,
 'prefer_metadata_cover': False,
 'pretty_print': False,
 'pubdate': None,
 'publisher': None,
 'rating': None,
 'read_metadata_from_opf': u'C:\\DOCUME~1\\JackieS\\LOCALS~1\\Temp\\calibre_0.9.4_tmp_0imzrg\\tofxhd.opf',
 'remove_fake_margins': False,
 'remove_first_image': False,
 'remove_paragraph_spacing': False,
 'remove_paragraph_spacing_indent_size': 1.5,
 'renumber_headings': True,
 'replace_scene_breaks': u'',
 'search_replace': '[]',
 'series': None,
 'series_index': None,
 'share_not_sync': False,
 'smarten_punctuation': True,
 'sr1_replace': None,
 'sr1_search': None,
 'sr2_replace': None,
 'sr2_search': None,
 'sr3_replace': None,
 'sr3_search': None,
 'start_reading_at': None,
 'tags': None,
 'timestamp': None,
 'title': None,
 'title_sort': None,
 'toc_filter': None,
 'toc_threshold': 6,
 'toc_title': None,
 'unsmarten_punctuation': False,
 'unwrap_lines': True,
 'use_auto_toc': False,
 'verbose': 2}
@jackie-w - how does one list the conversion options - ie what's behind the spoiler

thanks BR
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:07 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BetterRed View Post
@jackie-w - how does one list the conversion options - ie what's behind the spoiler

thanks BR
Do you mean, how did I create the list of conversion settings? If so, then just after you've done a conversion:
  • In the calibre main window, click on the bottom right Jobs icon. This will bring up a list of jobs from your current session - most recent at the top.
  • Highlight the conversion job you want the details of and click the 'Show job details' button. You can examine calibre's log of what happened during the conversion. The conversion settings are at the top. Copy/paste the bits you want.
BTW you can also use the same method to view the log in real-time whilst a job is running. Can be useful if you think a conversion is 'stuck'.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:04 PM   #19
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@Jackie_W,

I'm going to try your suggestions, but I have a few follow-up questions. I apologize in advance for my ignorance and dumb questions. Please be patient with me -- I am a tech novice.

I'm looking at the example document. It appears that you use "Heading 1" for the chapter title; "Normal" for the first, non-indented paragraph; and "Normal (Web)" for all subsequent paragraphs. Is that correct?

If I format my documents as described above, do I just then important them directly into Calibre (without converting them to web-filtered)? And then run the regular conversion to .mobi without making any preference changes?

Last edited by A Lurker; 11-27-2012 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:32 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by DoctorOhh View Post
I could be 100% mistaken since I don't use rtf, but I believe I understand your problem and for the most part it is self inflicted.
On its own, Calibre is removing my tabs and inserting spaces between paragraphs. That's the underlying problem. There is nothing self-inflicted about it. My question is: How do I get Calibre to stop reformatting my document on its own?

I tested a couple of ways to counter-act these Calibre-inflicted flaws (for example, I checked the box to remove spaces), but those created new problems. (Perhaps that's what you're referring to when you say the problems are self-inflicted?) If I follow your suggestion and stop fiddling with those settings, it certainly addresses these new problems, but it does nothing about the underlying problem. Your suggestions merely get me back to square one (with no tabs and spaces between my parapgraphs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorOhh View Post
You could do as Kovid suggested and save the rtf as web paged filtered then convert to mobi making sure you have a neg value under the indent size so calibre doesn't change your indents (see attached).
As I noted earlier, I tried that and it didn't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorOhh View Post
If you don't want calibre to change your paragraph indents during conversion then quit telling calibre to change your paragraph indents.
Again, Calibre is removing them on its own. I am not telling it to. That's the point of my entire message which you've missed time and time again! Calibre is making changes on its own and I want it to stop! After Calibre removed my indents on its own I've tried telling it to put them back in, but Calibre indents everything and can't differentiate between text that should not be indented.

Other posters have suggested that I replace the tabs in my document with indents using Styles. That sounds like it could address my underlying problem. I will give that a try.

Last edited by A Lurker; 11-27-2012 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Lurker View Post
On its own, Calibre is removing my tabs and inserting spaces between paragraphs. That's the underlying problem. There is nothing self-inflicted about it. My question is: How do I get Calibre to stop doing reformatting my document on its own?
The problem is that in the HTML based formats used by eBooks such as ePub and mobi tabs have no effect at all on formatting. It makes no difference whether Calibre removes them or leaves them - it does not affect the output formatting. Therefore you cannot use tabs to control formatting - you have to use some other mechanism such as styles.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:41 PM   #22
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@ Jackie_W,

I just noticed that in the sample "RTF_Test.mobi" document you attached there is a space between the paragraphs. That is what I'm desperately trying to avoid.

In previously conversion attemps I tried checking the "remove line spaces between paragraphs", but that messed with my tabs. I'm hoping that if I convert my tabs to indents I won't have that problem.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:44 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by itimpi View Post
Therefore you cannot use tabs to control formatting - you have to use some other mechanism such as styles.
Thanks. That is a very helpful suggestion. Jackie_W and BetterRed offered the same solution. I haven't tried it yet, but I am optimisitic that it will work.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:48 PM   #24
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@ Jackie_W, BetterRed and itimpi,

THANK YOU! Your suggestion worked. I edited the .rft file in MS Word. I deleted all the tabs in my document and replaced them with a 0.3 indent. I made sure the first paragraphs of each section were a "normal" style so that they would not be indented.

Then I imported the .rtf directly into Calibre and converted it. By default, Calibre still inserted a line space between the paragrah. I re-ran the conversion, this time checking the "do not insert a space" box and setting Calibre's indent to "no change". This time, the document came out looking exactly like the original file.

I truly appreciate all of your gracious, constructive suggestions, and your patience with my limited technical knowledge.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Lurker View Post
I'm looking at the example document. It appears that you use "Heading 1" for the chapter title; "Normal" for the first, non-indented paragraph; and "Normal (Web)" for all subsequent paragraphs. Is that correct?
Re: chapter headings - you will definitely benefit from using Word's built-in heading styles (Heading 1, Heading 2, ..., Heading 6) to define your Chapter/Sub-heading paragraphs. This is because you can tell calibre to use them during conversion to get a good TOC. See this part of calibre manual.

The sample RTF used 'Heading1' as a chapter heading, but for my own docs I prefer to use 'Heading 2' for chapter hdgs and 'Heading 3' for sub-hdgs, reserving 'Heading 1' for the book Title and Author only. This is purely personal choice, calibre won't mind which you use as long as you tell it in your conversion settings.

Re: non-indented paras - yes, for simplicity I just used the standard Normal style which, by default has a text-indent of zero. You can change it if you want.

Re: indented paras - I modified the 'Normal(Web)' style to have a first line indent. I think, by default, it has the same style as 'Normal'.

It's hard to explain why I've done it this way without getting into the nitty-gritty of saving docs as HTML rather than RTF. So I won't try for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Lurker View Post
If I format my documents as described above, do I just then important them directly into Calibre (without converting them to web-filtered)? And then run the regular conversion to .mobi without making any preference changes?
You can save as RTF or web-filtered before importing into calibre for conversion, but web-filtered is likely to retain more of the finer points of any styling that you've applied in Word... Which leads me onto ...

Quote:
I just noticed that in the sample "RTF_Test.mobi" document you attached there is a space between the paragraphs. That is what I'm desperately trying to avoid.
The space you see isn't blank lines it's a top and bottom margin on each paragraph. I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that conversions from RTF default to both top/bottom being set to 1em - which looks like blank lines between each paragraph.

There are several ways to get round this
  • By using the ExtraCSS box on calibre's Convert - Look&Feel page. If you type in the following before you convert, the lines should 'close up'
    Code:
    p {margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0}
  • By converting to epub and using calibre's 'Tweak ebook' feature to manually edit the epub's internal css file (in a simple text editor) to get rid of the unwanted top/bottom margins. Then convert the epub to mobi.

    Note: I think if your final destination format is new mobi (KF8, azw3) rather than old mobi, then you should be able to go direct from RTF to mobi without using epub as an interim format, because you can also use 'Tweak ebook' to directly edit the css file in a KF8/azw3. I'm not a Kindle user though so what I'm saying is theoretical.
  • By saving your Word doc as web-filtered HTML rather than RTF. If you do this there is a better chance that the top/bottom paragraph margins (and other styling) you set in Word, will be retained in the HTML and hence honoured in the conversion, i.e. you wouldn't need to type anything in the ExtraCSS box.

    I need to add a caveat here. Using Word to create clean simple HTML is a bit of a black art. It can create very messy HTML code. This doesn't mean calibre won't be able to create epubs/mobis which are perfectly acceptable to you for reading, but some people like the inside to look as neat as the outside

That's probably enough to be going on with. BTW I was in your position 3-years ago, trying to figure out the best way of getting Word to play nicely with calibre. It didn't take me long to realise that learning a little bit of html/css is essential if you're at all picky about how your ebooks look. It's probably not what you want to hear right now, but I'm afraid, as they say, resistance is futile

[Edit: damn... too late... could have saved myself some typing if I'd seen your last post.]
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:20 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie_w View Post
Do you mean, how did I create the list of conversion settings? If so, then just after you've done a conversion:
  • In the calibre main window, click on the bottom right Jobs icon. This will bring up a list of jobs from your current session - most recent at the top.
  • Highlight the conversion job you want the details of and click the 'Show job details' button. You can examine calibre's log of what happened during the conversion. The conversion settings are at the top. Copy/paste the bits you want.
BTW you can also use the same method to view the log in real-time whilst a job is running. Can be useful if you think a conversion is 'stuck'.
Thanks jackie_w - I always forget the bottom right buttons.

I don't get stuck conversions since I wound back the settings to one job at a time at lowest priority - get twice as much done, and the CPU fan remains blissfully quite.

BR
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:19 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Lurker View Post
(for example, I checked the box to remove spaces)
I'm glad you got it sorted out.

One note for folks reading this thread. The checkbox next to Removing spaces between paragraphs is also the checkbox that causes the Indent size box to be activated. The same is true for the checkbox next to Insert blank line between paragraphs, this box also activates the Line size box to the right on the same line. For each of the check-boxes mentioned there are two parts that are activated.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:04 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by A Lurker View Post
You're pedantic and condescending focus on my layman's vocabulary is unhelpful. There were a few comments in your reply that suggest you might be starting to grasp my problem... but if I'm not mistaken, your response is basically, "Yeah, that's how Calibre works." In other words, you're merely acknowledging the limitations of Calibre without offering any possible work-arounds. That's also unhelpful.
A lurker, even though you discovered some workarounds, I copied the above quote to a responder to your op as a historical note because it resonates with my own feelings. I want you to know I'm on your side 100%. I'm still having the same problem. The fact is nobody has the balls to spill out the truth, which is that calibre removes tabs because the author has a bunch of mindless yesmen saying how great his software is. The more people who post workarounds the less the chance the author stops ignoring tabs. It's really ridiculous IMO. (All these people failing to agree there's even a problem.) It's like they write a 10 page css code insert workaround and then say you're an idiot for not realizing how do write this yourself. I hope this is a wakeup call to the calibre author to fix the tab problem. I'm sure his followers will bash us for no logical reason. I'm getting used to that. That's life.

In my case I don't have an rtf source so I still don't know what to do. I have a mobi source and I want to convert it to epub. The right thing is to rewrite calibre so it stops ignoring tabs IMO. But, in the meantime, does anyone know of a workaround for me?

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Old 02-06-2013, 02:01 PM   #29
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I hate to get involved here but really, if you mean to say INDENTS say INDENTS not TABS.

As has been said over and over, tabs are treated as simply white space in ePubs and not as a means of imparting ANY formatting / layout to the ePub.
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:43 PM   #30
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Normally I try to help beginners struggling with styling issues, but this 'mindless yeswoman' finds she can't be bothered with such an offensive post. Good luck getting others to help.
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