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Old 11-17-2012, 05:00 PM   #241
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But some have already said they do vote based on who voted and.or how many votes were already cast. So we know this to be what does happen in an open vote.
You're mistaking rhetoric for reality.

Vote for a book that's got a shot, instead of an also-ran? Sure. But not voting for a choice because of who's voted for it? That's hyperbole.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:36 PM   #242
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You're mistaking rhetoric for reality.

Vote for a book that's got a shot, instead of an also-ran? Sure. But not voting for a choice because of who's voted for it? That's hyperbole.
That's not voting for the book you want. That's voting based on what someone else wants.

Now lets say we have 20 people total. Let's say 8 people have voted and one book has 7 votes and one has 1 vote and the rest have none. If the vote is open, these remaining people might not vote for what they wanted based on the way the votes are going making it seem like the one with 7 is going to be the winner. Now if the vote was hidden, these remaining voters could vote enough for a different book to make it the winner.

And the fact that some have openly said they sometimes vote based on what others have have and/or how many votes case means an open vote doesn't work properly.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:57 AM   #243
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That's not voting for the book you want. That's voting based on what someone else wants.

Now lets say we have 20 people total. Let's say 8 people have voted and one book has 7 votes and one has 1 vote and the rest have none. If the vote is open, these remaining people might not vote for what they wanted based on the way the votes are going making it seem like the one with 7 is going to be the winner. Now if the vote was hidden, these remaining voters could vote enough for a different book to make it the winner.

And the fact that some have openly said they sometimes vote based on what others have have and/or how many votes case means an open vote doesn't work properly.
First, you're confusing two issues. In an open vote where we can see names, no one is voting out of spite no matter what they might say. Get over it.

The bigger issue reminds me of politics where a certain party claims that its way allows for individuality, but in reality it means only so long as you conform to its norms.

People can vote for what they want for whatever reason they want. Who is anyone to criticize someone else's reasons? Dressing up an "analysis" in words like best, fairest, proper, etc., etc., is just so much bs. Unfair might be scheduling a vote for 2 AM to 5 AM east coast time in North America, or for Tom to accept some "absentee" votes and not others. In an open vote, everyone has the same chance to time his/her vote, whether to vote early and try to establish support or to wait and pick one's preference out of the viable options.

I understand there are reasons for preferring a closed vote. Some people like a surprise, like waiting for the birth to find out the sex of a baby. Some think it gives better odds to long shots, but this has not been proved. It might be true; it might make no real difference. I suspect nothing can save a true long shot and the reason it doesn't get early or late votes is because people don't want to read it, but I don't care. I'd rather have the fun of an open vote, where people can keep checking back and campaign for serious contender. The more involvement, the higher the interest level and a more vibrant book group.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:40 PM   #244
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First, you're confusing two issues. In an open vote where we can see names, no one is voting out of spite no matter what they might say. Get over it.
I never said anyone was voting out of spite. I said some people admitted to voting based on what others have voted for and/or voting based on numbers.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:30 PM   #245
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I feel there are too many voting choices. There doesn't appear to be enough votes for ten titles each month.

As I generally don't participate, you may disregard my post
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:52 PM   #246
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So Tom, has a decision been made as to how the voting process is going to operate? I know that a few of the proposals that have been discussed include:
  • all hidden votes
  • all open votes
  • poll on hidden versus open voting with months broken down into approximation of poll split
  • multiple choice voting.
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:36 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Hamlet53 View Post
So Tom, has a decision been made as to how the voting process is going to operate? I know that a few of the proposals that have been discussed include:
  • all hidden votes
  • all open votes
  • poll on hidden versus open voting with months broken down into approximation of poll split
  • multiple choice voting.
This have been rather hectic these past few days as we prepare for our upcoming winter contest, but I'll try to get a poll up soon on the question.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:49 AM   #248
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This have been rather hectic these past few days as we prepare for our upcoming winter contest, but I'll try to get a poll up soon on the question.
I'm so glad all of you are doing these contests again. I remember when I first came here I saw one or two and then they went away for awhile...they make the site feel more special.

Also, regarding the polls, I mentioned it before but with all going on it could have been lost in the shuffle so I'll mention it again in case -

Could we please do a vote on multiple choice before open vs closed?

Multiple choice seems to have good support while open vs closed is contentious, and if multiple choice passes first, I think it would eliminate many of the arguments that may come up in an open vs closed vote, then making that vote go smoother with less argument and contention between those who favour open and those who favour closed.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:25 AM   #249
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...I have no desire to do another mixed year; that has proven to be more confusing than I anticipated...
This was from another thread, discussing open vs closed, but I found it while perusing...I agree with you. The mixed year in 2012 was never really intended and resulted from us having a strange sort of tie in the poll last year. Overall I feel the mixed year has proved basically confusing and unnecessary, especially to you who has to keep up with it.

I think it'd be simpler and easier to have twelve months of one or twelve months of the other, and it'd be preferable even if the choice I like less wins. It would be good if whenever we have the open vs closed poll there's only two options, such as "open" or "hidden", and the winner takes all, and if there's a tie Tom breaks it.

Last edited by sun surfer; 11-22-2012 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:13 AM   #250
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This have been rather hectic these past few days as we prepare for our upcoming winter contest, but I'll try to get a poll up soon on the question.

Sorry, no problem there. For some reason I was thinking that this must be settled for the upcoming vote, but no not necessary until the January selection at the earliest.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:57 PM   #251
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Two new polls now up for one week.

You asked for them; here they are: two new polls addressing questions much discussed in this thread.

Poll! Open vs Closed Voting in 2013

Should multiple voting be allowed in 2013?
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:24 PM   #252
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Jon had suggested doing away with the mandatory run-off polls in 2013 if we have multiple choice, and others thought it was a good idea, and I do too.

Since multiple choice gives everyone the freedom to choose what they want the first time around and will create larger majorities for the book that wins, it eliminates the main reasons we decided to use run-offs every month.

Doing away with them would also make things simpler for everyone and easier for Tom, and I think would get people even more invested in the first poll since it'd often be final.

So I propose doing away with the run-offs unless there is a tie.

And we could still put our 2012 way of doing run-offs to good use for resolving any 2013 ties - A shorter single-choice run-off for the tied winners, and if that ends in a tie then Tom's vote decides it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:52 PM   #253
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Jon had suggested doing away with the mandatory run-off polls in 2013 if we have multiple choice, and others thought it was a good idea, and I do too.

Since multiple choice gives everyone the freedom to choose what they want the first time around and will create larger majorities for the book that wins, it eliminates the main reasons we decided to use run-offs every month.

Doing away with them would also make things simpler for everyone and easier for Tom, and I think would get people even more invested in the first poll since it'd often be final.

So I propose doing away with the run-offs unless there is a tie.

And we could still put our 2012 way of doing run-offs to good use for resolving any 2013 ties - A shorter single-choice run-off for the tied winners, and if that ends in a tie then Tom's vote decides it.
What she said.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:09 PM   #254
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What she said.
I think a run-off is superfluous, too, but I hate to see poor sun surfer emasculated for the cause.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:11 PM   #255
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Jon had suggested doing away with the mandatory run-off polls in 2013 if we have multiple choice, and others thought it was a good idea, and I do too.

Since multiple choice gives everyone the freedom to choose what they want the first time around and will create larger majorities for the book that wins, it eliminates the main reasons we decided to use run-offs every month.

Doing away with them would also make things simpler for everyone and easier for Tom, and I think would get people even more invested in the first poll since it'd often be final.

So I propose doing away with the run-offs unless there is a tie.

And we could still put our 2012 way of doing run-offs to good use for resolving any 2013 ties - A shorter single-choice run-off for the tied winners, and if that ends in a tie then Tom's vote decides it.
Or no run off vote, and WT Sharpe decides if there is a tie.

Or how about no run-off vote, and we have discussions on all the winners. I'm up for this.
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