Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book Formats > ePub

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-18-2012, 07:50 AM   #1
exaltedwombat
Evangelist
exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 445
Karma: 1703930
Join Date: Nov 2011
Device: none
Just how far can you go?

OK, that title got your attention!

Any thoughts from the folk here who do commercial eBook design on how clever it's currently sensible to get with layout?

We've all had customers who baulk when it doesn't look "just like the printed book". Quite advanced layout can be achieved in Sigil, and it renders nicely in ADE. But then you transfer to (say) an Android tablet, with its choice of epub readers, and everything falls apart. Not to mention the real-life necessity of having to also deliver a mobi version. And whatever we think of mobi, this is a non-negotiable - the book's GOING to be put on the Amazon shop.

Is there any point in going beyond simple text with inline pictures and graphics? Is it now safe to use simple, non-nested tables? Attempting to include fonts other than generic serif or sans-serif? Is there an official-looking statement I can direct clients to laying out just what features it is reasonable to expect?

Comments from people who create eBooks for general distribution would be of great interest!
exaltedwombat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 08:00 AM   #2
kiwidude
calibre/Sigil Developer
kiwidude ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kiwidude ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kiwidude ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kiwidude ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kiwidude ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kiwidude ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kiwidude ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kiwidude ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kiwidude ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kiwidude ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.kiwidude ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 4,228
Karma: 1334002
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: London, UK
Device: Kindle Paperwhite 3G, iPad 3, iPad Air
This sort of thread (and far too many others in my opinion) should not be in the Sigil forum. There are other forums on MobileRead more appropriate.

I know there are a lot of very helpful folks who kindly answer such threads, but it does rather dilute the purpose of having a forum dedicated to Sigil the "application" and people wanting to either ask questions about it or report problems for the developers to respond to.
kiwidude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 08:10 AM   #3
cybmole
Wizard
cybmole ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cybmole ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cybmole ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cybmole ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cybmole ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cybmole ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cybmole ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cybmole ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cybmole ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cybmole ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cybmole ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,863
Karma: 1163098
Join Date: Sep 2010
Device: Kobo aura HD, Kobo Arc, Kindle Fire HDX 8.9 , Kindle for PC
+1 to that.

I'm usually up for discussing epub related issues here, as this is where most of the expertise is, but this one is off-topic
cybmole is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 09:30 AM   #4
DiapDealer
Grand Sorcerer
DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DiapDealer's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,272
Karma: 42298328
Join Date: Jan 2010
Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD
I'm definitely from the "less is best" school of thought. The first thing I try to do (and I'm not a commercial ePub designer by any means; just to be clear) is forget I've ever seen the print version. I just don't consider it very relevant (in "normal" mainly-text narratives). The ebook is its own beast and needs its own consideration. Reflow changes the game and I wish authors/publishers/customers would just accept that instead instead of fighting it tooth and nail.

So while I'm certainly not advocating a straight text-only representation, I prefer elegant simplicity: The bare minimum that will appeal to fans of typographic tradition while at the same time, not expose the constraints imposed by any particular format/renderer.

Last edited by DiapDealer; 11-18-2012 at 12:27 PM.
DiapDealer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 09:47 AM   #5
mrmikel
Book Twiddler
mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,086
Karma: 1444487
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Central Oregon Coast
Device: PRS-300
I agree completely. If you want exact duplication make it a PDF and enjoy it on a tablet big enough to render a whole page at a time.

That is even true in print. There is a reason why few coffee table books are published in paperback size.
mrmikel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 09:35 PM   #6
theducks
Grand Sorcerer
theducks ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.theducks ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.theducks ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.theducks ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.theducks ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.theducks ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.theducks ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.theducks ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.theducks ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.theducks ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.theducks ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
theducks's Avatar
 
Posts: 14,863
Karma: 5654321
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: (The original) Silicon Valley, USA
Device: Galaxy Tab 2, Astak Pocket Pro, K4NT
I think the 80/20 rule should be considered.
Your design should render nice (not necessarily perfect) on 80% of the dedicate type reading devices in current use.
If you can make it work well on any of the 20%, you get bonus points

Note: I used devices and NOT Market share
theducks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 06:38 AM   #7
mrmikel
Book Twiddler
mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.mrmikel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,086
Karma: 1444487
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Central Oregon Coast
Device: PRS-300
Most advanced layout will blow up when you make the page large enough, so you have to accept you can't win em all -- heck some days I am glad to win ANY!

I think even with PDF it will be less pleasant if you increase the size enough.

But someone who has vision troubles may be might pleased to be able to use it at all.
mrmikel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 06:38 PM   #8
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 37,701
Karma: 18475502
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Sony Reader PRS-650, iPad, nook STR
The rule of thumb is that if it looks good in ADE, then it's the fault of the non-ADE app and thus, forget about it because you won't please everyone. Use Bluefire Reader on Android to test the eBook. If it works there and not in other apps, then it's the fault of the other apps.
JSWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 07:46 AM   #9
exaltedwombat
Evangelist
exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.exaltedwombat ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 445
Karma: 1703930
Join Date: Nov 2011
Device: none
Trouble is, the customer isn't interested in platform wars, or in telling potential customers what system they SHOULD have chosen. Just about selling copies and not getting complaints.
exaltedwombat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 08:19 AM   #10
DiapDealer
Grand Sorcerer
DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DiapDealer's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,272
Karma: 42298328
Join Date: Jan 2010
Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD
Quote:
Originally Posted by exaltedwombat View Post
Trouble is, the customer isn't interested in platform wars, or in telling potential customers what system they SHOULD have chosen. Just about selling copies and not getting complaints.
If just "selling copies and not getting complaints" is truly ALL they're interested in, then they've forfeited their rights to nitpick about the formatting of a technological "product" whose creation and limitations they know nothing about. Problem solved.

The issues stem from the fact that most customers care about waaaaay more than just "selling copies and not getting complaints." Let's face it ... life would be a dream (for ebook creators) if that's all they worried about.

Last edited by DiapDealer; 11-20-2012 at 08:30 AM.
DiapDealer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 01:26 PM   #11
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 37,701
Karma: 18475502
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Sony Reader PRS-650, iPad, nook STR
If publishers took the time and effort to learn how to make properly formatted eBooks, then they'd have a lot less error prone eBooks and they would look better and give a more satisfying read.
JSWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 01:33 PM   #12
colinsky
Groupie
colinsky ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.colinsky ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.colinsky ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.colinsky ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.colinsky ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.colinsky ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.colinsky ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.colinsky ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.colinsky ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.colinsky ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.colinsky ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
colinsky's Avatar
 
Posts: 189
Karma: 1092954
Join Date: Sep 2009
Device: Sony PRS-300
If aspects of the design and layout are important to the content, feel, or message that the author wants to portray, they should be integrated as much as possible into the electronic edition (or replicated "equivalently" in some way)--they are part of the intended experience. If they are incidental to the text (for instance, a publisher style convention), they are less important to duplicate exactly.
colinsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 01:36 PM   #13
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 37,701
Karma: 18475502
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Sony Reader PRS-650, iPad, nook STR
Quote:
Originally Posted by colinsky View Post
If aspects of the design and layout are important to the content, feel, or message that the author wants to portray, they should be integrated as much as possible into the electronic edition (or replicated "equivalently" in some way)--they are part of the intended experience. If they are incidental to the text (for instance, a publisher style convention), they are less important to duplicate exactly.
A lot of eBooks are formatted poorly. Wide margins, paragraph spaces, sometimes no indents, text set to small by default, large space at the beginning of chapters and other assorted mess. That's not a good reading experience.
JSWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2012, 01:46 PM   #14
Jellby
frumious Bandersnatch
Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Jellby's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,195
Karma: 4800739
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spaniard in Sweden
Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura
An ebook with minimal formatting (no hard-wired margins, no unneeded embedded font, no fancy alignments...) is almost guaranteed to be decently rendered and readable in pretty much any reader.

An ebook with lots of bells and whistles that try to make it look as close as possible as the printed book in some particular reader/format, is almost guaranteed to fail miserably and produce an unreadable piece of cr... text in some other reader, or with some particular set of preferences (some people like reading in landscape, or with large font...).

So, my advice is to be rather minimalistic as far as formatting goes, and only add other "nice" stuff after considering how it will look in readers that do not support that feature, or with wildly different settings.
Jellby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2012, 04:18 PM   #15
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 37,701
Karma: 18475502
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Sony Reader PRS-650, iPad, nook STR
If it renders fine in ADE, then it is the fault of the other reading app(s) botching things.
JSWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:20 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.