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Old 11-17-2012, 08:12 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by HansTWN View Post
So if it happened, it is over and done with it, no phone from any major brand even remotely reminds us of the iPhone
And it is fair to think that one reason for that is Apple's willingness to sue anybody who makes a device that does resemble the iPhone. So in that regard, they have achieved their objective.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:22 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by Bilbo1967 View Post
If by 'stand for something' you mean cut and paste meaningless snippets from a document I found on the internet that I inexplicably think supports my argument, then I'll pass, thanks.

I've seen the question asked a couple of times; Can you explain for us how any of these examples you provided affected sales of iphones? Why won't you answer that question?
Those are weasel words, Bilbo. You cannot participate in an argument unless you have a position to defend. Here, let me help you define yours.

Are UI elements, software features, and visual design cues aspects of product differentiation? Yes or no?

Does differentiation make a product more attractive to a target market? Yes or no?

If those UI elements, software features, and visual design cues are copied by a competitor, are their products less differentiated than before? Yes or no?
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:08 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by jjallenupthehill View Post
An architectural masterpiece. It's not internationally accepted as such.
Which one are you referring to? I had called two buildings architectural masterpieces.


Quote:

I wouldn't necessarily call the second design 'derivative'. It could be claimed to be inspired by it, but derivative I think is stretching it a bit ...

The word derivative implies that the new work arises explicitly as a result of the original, without adding to it.

This isn't really true. Of course if you wanted to be picky about the term 'derivative' I guess probably over 90% of all architecture could be called derivative. This is of course different to being a blatant rip off.
Regarding the word derivative, I disagree with your interpretation of it. One of the definitions for it is: Copied or adapted from others. Adapted often implies adding to something.

All works inspired by other works are to some degree derivative. So, no need to play semantic games. It just derails the discussion.

In this case, the Apple store is very derivative which equals a rip off.

Quote:
To start with, the Apple design is fundamentally about a simple, minimal glass cube that kind of serves as a big lobby. The original work uses a glass box which is an exhibition space and just one part of a larger design.
That is incorrect. The glass cube of the Apple store serves as the main selling space. And it can even be readily considered exhibition space too, as it is where all their current models -- from iphones and tablets to ipods and PCs and laptops -- are all laid out just as if on exhibition! Moreover, just as the exhibition space in the Rose center, that selling space is just one part of a larger design.

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Architecture which is based on simple volumes is really common, and this kind of monumental architecture started with the pyramids and was revived by Claude Nicolas Ledoux and Étienne-Louis Boullée. It so happens that the medium of expression is glass.
Of course architecture based just on simple shapes is common. But it is precisely the use of huge swaths of clear glass for constructing almost the entire geometric shape that makes the Rose center unique/unusual. Not just having a spare geometric shape.

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The reason for the curved roof is functional. You need to get the water off the roof so that you have less chance of snow settling on it. The ideal would be a flat roof, but it's not practical, so you try to get away with the minimum degree of curvature or slope possible so that you don't ruin the design principle of your 'cube'.
From the perspective of the ordinary observer, I doubt the curved roof is very relevant in terms of the overall impact of the structure. Most probably see just a clear glass box/rectangular -- just like with the Rose Center.

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The Apple store also doesn't rip off the Rose Center, because that would also involve the size of the panes, proportions, means of structural support and volume elements. Apple have used a design which is similar to a single part of another (the Rose Center is elevated on a massive masonry base which projects past the cube, has a roof which is solid, not glass, and it has a solid closed volume at one edge) and refined and improved it.
Structural support and base elements are mostly hidden and/or inconsequential in terms of the impression a building has on observers. So too are the size of the panes of glass. People don't visit either of these structures and really remember what the base or structural support looked like (if they are even out in the open). The main elements of the clear walls and squarish geometric shape are still all very similar in the two structures. The takeaway impression people have of both is strikingly similar.

As for a "solid closed volume at one edge" not sure how that makes the exterior of the Rose Center any less similar to the exterior of the Apple store. To the contrary, the closed space at one edge is very similar in feel to the closed wall at the rear of the Apple store.

Quote:
The Apple store has been stripped to the point of ultimate minimalism, with an almost invisible support structure which is constructed of the same material as the cladding. On the Rose Center, the support structure is an overt part of the visual design.
Again, we're talking mostly about the exterior of each building and the overall impression it makes on ordinary observers. Not how each building is furnished inside or how it is supported. Why would you think I included interiors as part of the comparison? One is a retail outlet and one is essentially a museum.

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Even if you take the view that the original was an explicit precedent (which is commonplace) it doesn't substantially copy the original, it only uses a part of the design, which it refines and adapts to the new context and function.
The most predominant features of the Rose Center are the entirely glass walls and squarish geometric shape. The most predominant features of the Apple store are the entirely glass walls and squarish geometric shape. You can keep trying to spin it all you want, but one building is highly derivative of the other.

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So - in terms of 'rip off' pertaining to a blatant copy, it's clearly not so. Even the glazed section isn't a rip off. Most obviously the new building has a transparent roof. Also the function is different.
"Rip off" means imitative. The Apple store is certainly imitative of the Rose Center. Just because the internal function of a building is different, doesn't make the exterior any less of a rip off.

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Would you consider Pei's Louvre pyramid a rip-off of the orginal, but updated and translated in a modern material?
To some extent yes, but since the huge panels of clear glass are a primary essential architectural feature of the Louvre entrance, then it is very different and unique from the originals at the same time.

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If we go back to the similarity of phone copying, the Galaxy didn't evidently add anything (apart from the logos, which aren't relevant) or take anything away from the original design, it copied it in its entirety, and copied most of the details in their complete form for precisely the same use as a direct competitor. The only really evident difference externally is the square button instead of a round one.

Now that is a rip-off
I haven't really looked at the Galaxy in particular to see how it matches up with the iPhone. So, for the purposes of this particular discussion, I'll take your word that it is a rip-off. Just like Apple's UWS store is a rip-off of the Rose Center. And, just like the original iPhone was a rip-off to some degree of prior technologies, including the Palm OS. So, the two companies have a lot in common. They are both talented rip-off artists!

--Pat
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:21 PM   #589
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post

(Click for original size)

121. Visual Interaction Effect — Voice Recording

No feedback on sound level when recording voice
  • iPhone: When using voice recorder, provides image of a microphone and displays volume
  • S1: Provides recorder as background and does not display sound recording status (level)

iPhone: Because users speak into a microphone when actually recording something, it gives users a familiar recognition that easily shows what function is being used and what action needs to be taken

Provides feedback on the sound level detected from microphone
S1: A recorder is not a bad background, but users are not familiar with the recorder and microphone is what is actually touched during recordings, so falls short on intuitiveness in comparison

No feedback on the sound level of what is being recorded

Directions for improvement: Select a background that gives an emotional and intuitive feel to the user when using the function
Add feedback that indicates the volume of what is being said at the time

How does pointing out ONE instance where the end result of a recommendation resulted in a very similar look to iOS make my comment ...

Quote:
"So, without having gone through each one, it appears the great majority of the things in that document were not direct recommendations to outright "copy" iOS. As such, my opinion that you mischaracterized the nature of the document still stands."
... any less true??? (I bolded some relevant words)

--Pat
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:53 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by murraypaul View Post
And it is fair to think that one reason for that is Apple's willingness to sue anybody who makes a device that does resemble the iPhone. So in that regard, they have achieved their objective.
Well, if that was their objective, why didn't they sue 2 years ago, when the Galaxy S came out? And why are they trying to include models which bear no resemblance whatsoever, like the S III and the Note?
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:57 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
So you no longer deny that Samsung copied Apple. Now the criteria is whether the copying led to lost sales. Is that right?

Just verifying.
Wrong, where did I say so? Once more, you are putting words in people's mouths. I do not deny that Samsung benchmarked their phones against the iphone (and most likely others). They probably improved the phones as a result of those benchmarks (not only against the iphone), but it was not "blatant copy". The bottom line is that there was no sales loss to apple as a result, which is what they've been claiming all along, and the question you refuse to answer, over and over again. We know why.

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:06 PM   #592
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Originally Posted by PatNY View Post
How does pointing out ONE instance where the end result of a recommendation resulted in a very similar look to iOS make my comment ...



... any less true??? (I bolded some relevant words)

--Pat
The recommendation of every direction for improvement save three is to copy the iPhone's features. The only exceptions are slides 11, 27, and 58. That's 97.7%. There is really nothing else to say. Amusingly, there are even comparisons where Samsung's UI arguably has certain advantages over iOS', such as 8, 16, 32, and 43, yet the recommendation is still to copy Apple.

Slide 126 is particularly amusing, as it contains two recommendations to copy iOS icons followed by one to "remove a feeling that iPhone's menu icons are copied by differentiating design."
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:25 PM   #593
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Originally Posted by afv011 View Post
Wrong, where did I say so? Once more, you are putting words in people's mouths. I do not deny that Samsung benchmarked their phones against the iphone (and most likely others). They probably improved the phones as a result of those benchmarks (not only against the iphone), but it was not "blatant copy". The bottom line is that there was no sales loss to apple as a result, which is what they've been claiming all along, and the question you refuse to answer, over and over again. We know why.
If you want to discuss the effect of copying on sales, feel free to answer the questions I asked to Bilbo above. He seems to have disappeared just as that discussion began.

You may be getting ahead of yourself, though. Unfortunately, you haven't yet understood that Samsung's internal documents recommended copying the iPhone, recommendations which they later implemented. We'll keep posting slides until you do.


(Click for original size)

84. Messaging — SMS

In the Abc mode of the text message entry system, additional latin characters such as 'À, Ê, Ï, Õ' cannot be entered
  • iPhone: In the Abc mode, if the vowel button is long-pressed, an entry window containing additional Latin characters is shown
  • S1: Additional Latin characters can be entered only after changing the language mode

iPhone: When A is long pressed in the ABC mode, additional Latin characters (German, French, and Spanish) can be immediately typed in
S1: Input language must be changed to German, French, Spanish, etc. in order to enter additional Latin characters

Directions for improvement: Modification requested to enable input of additional Latin characters directly from the Abc mode as in iPhone

* * *

(The "as in iPhone" is a nice touch)
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:40 PM   #594
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
84. Messaging — SMS

In the Abc mode of the text message entry system, additional latin characters such as 'À, Ê, Ï, Õ' cannot be entered
  • iPhone: In the Abc mode, if the vowel button is long-pressed, an entry window containing additional Latin characters is shown
  • S1: Additional Latin characters can be entered only after changing the language mode

iPhone: When A is long pressed in the ABC mode, additional Latin characters (German, French, and Spanish) can be immediately typed in
S1: Input language must be changed to German, French, Spanish, etc. in order to enter additional Latin characters

Directions for improvement: Modification requested to enable input of additional Latin characters directly from the Abc mode as in iPhone

* * *

(The "as in iPhone" is a nice touch)
Ever used Windows Mobile? There they had such things years before the first iPhone.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:52 PM   #595
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Ever used Windows Mobile? There they had such things years before the first iPhone.
Indeed, though some people here seem to think apple invented the smartphone. There were no such things before 2007, no touch screen devices, no rounded corners, no grids of icons, ... nothing. Or so some seem to believe.

Does anybody here believe that apple didn't have a stack of phones from competing companies while they designed the iphone, so they could benchmark their products against what was out there? How is what Samsung did any different? Only in that we haven't had access to the apple documents.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:14 PM   #596
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
The recommendation of every direction for improvement save three is to copy the iPhone's features. The only exceptions are slides 11, 27, and 58. That's 97.7%. There is really nothing else to say. Amusingly, there are even comparisons where Samsung's UI arguably has certain advantages over iOS', such as 8, 16, 32, and 43, yet the recommendation is still to copy Apple.

Nonsense. Take the first 10:

1) A recommendation to support landscape mode (which, by the way, is a basic function that Sony/Nokia hold the patent for).

2) Make the daily schedule display area larger to make text more legible

3) Increase size of type on dial screen to make it more legible

4) Make the Hold button end a call.

5) Correct an error in existing UI so that duplicate icons can't appear.

6) Correct an error in existing UI where keyboard overlaps text fields.

7) Better indicate the status of a loading screen by placing the word "loading" in the middle of the screen (a common-sense functional improvement)

8) Remove clutter on results page by giving option to easily delete unnecessary search results

9) Remove clutter on certain search result screens by removing unnecessary icons.

10) Give the weather app the option to add other countries

Correcting UI errors, improving legibility and status indicators, and streamlining screens by clearing off clutter can hardly be considered "copying" an iPhone UI feature. So basically you're left with 3 items out of the first 10 at most that can be considered a recommendation to duplicate an iPhone UI feature. A 30% rate at best based on this sampling. That's way off your original statement that there were "recommendations to copy almost every UI element." Still, a mischaracterization.


Quote:
Slide 126 is particularly amusing, as it contains two recommendations to copy iOS icons followed by one to "remove a feeling that iPhone's menu icons are copied by differentiating design."
You do understand that 3 different design elements are being talked about here, don't you? So there is no contradiction. And, in fact, the third recommendation to differ the design actually goes toward Samsung's favor, showing more explicitly than anything else their true intent with this whole exercise.


--Pat
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:48 PM   #597
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Ever used Windows Mobile? There they had such things years before the first iPhone.
No, I have not. Would you be able to show the feature in question? I was unable to find it illustrated with Google.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:04 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by PatNY View Post
Nonsense. Take the first 10:

[snip]

Correcting UI errors, improving legibility and status indicators, and streamlining screens by clearing off clutter can hardly be considered "copying" an iPhone UI feature. So basically you're left with 3 items out of the first 10 at most that can be considered a recommendation to duplicate an iPhone UI feature. A 30% rate at best based on this sampling. That's way off your original statement that there were "recommendations to copy almost every UI element." Still, a mischaracterization.
You haven't contradicted anything I've written, you've just rephrased the directions for improvement. It remains that they are instructions to copy the iPhone's implementation of each feature.

Quote:
You do understand that 3 different design elements are being talked about here, don't you? So there is no contradiction. And, in fact, the third recommendation to differ the design actually goes toward Samsung's favor, showing more explicitly than anything else their true intent with this whole exercise.
Absolutely. It shows they were worried about imitating Apple too closely and that while copying the elements that lend iOS icons a "luxurious" and "soft and comfortable" feel, they would need to differentiate them otherwise to avoid being accused of theft.

Ironically, this last recommendation was ignored, as Samsung more closely imitated iOS icons over time.

For instance, the S1 icon for the phone app on the S1 is a dialpad; in later models, a phone handset, nearly identical to Apple's. The contacts icon on the S1 is a phone handset; in later models, a book adorned with a silhouette of a man's head and shoulders, nearly identical to the iOS contacts app.




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Old 11-18-2012, 05:08 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
Those are weasel words, Bilbo. You cannot participate in an argument unless you have a position to defend. Here, let me help you define yours.

Are UI elements, software features, and visual design cues aspects of product differentiation? Yes or no?

Does differentiation make a product more attractive to a target market? Yes or no?

If those UI elements, software features, and visual design cues are copied by a competitor, are their products less differentiated than before? Yes or no?


And yet here I am, participating. Weird.

Answering (or more accurately, refusing to answer) a direct question with a question is pretty much the definition of weasel words.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:26 AM   #600
PatNY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
You haven't contradicted anything I've written, you've just rephrased the directions for improvement. It remains that they are instructions to copy the iPhone's implementation of each feature.
Sure I have. How are correcting existing UI errors, making type more readable by enlarging it, and removing clutter on a screen iOS UI features? These things simply fall outside your characterization of the document.


Quote:
Absolutely. It shows they were worried about imitating Apple too closely and that while copying the elements that lend iOS icons a "luxurious" and "soft and comfortable" feel, they would need to differentiate them otherwise to avoid being accused of theft.
Well, there ya go! Nothing shows their TRUE intent throughout that whole exercise they did that day than those words. Their intent was not to clone an iphone but to improve their own product in ways that don't infringe but rather enhance their product in common sense ways. They had no idea at that time that in a few years, Apple would be making excessive infringement claims in front of a runaway jury!


Quote:
Ironically, this last recommendation was ignored, as Samsung more closely imitated iOS icons over time.

For instance, the S1 icon for the phone app on the S1 is a dialpad; in later models, a phone handset, nearly identical to Apple's. The contacts icon on the S1 is a phone handset; in later models, a book adorned with a silhouette of a man's head and shoulders, nearly identical to the iOS contacts app.
While I agree the phone app icon is very similar to that in iOS, I disagree strongly that the contacts icon is "nearly identical" to that in iOS. Maybe only if you're color blind and have no sense of design whatsoever. The two icons look totally different.

At any rate, one phone icon does not a "copy" make in terms of the entire interface. And it doesn't change the fact that the intent of the document was more to correct and improve rather than to "copy."

--Pat
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