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Old 11-17-2012, 05:50 AM   #556
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Hahahaha
Typical response from someone who has none. I am not surprised, coming from you.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:01 AM   #557
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Well, here's one court battle won by Samsung. Queen Elizabeth has now weighed in on the matter, issuing a royal decree crowning the Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 the official tablet of Buckingham Palace, passing over the iPad. From henceforth, only Samsungs are to be used for official business and royal browsing ... or off with ye head.



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Old 11-17-2012, 06:13 AM   #558
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That is what this discussion is all about isn't it. You are under the impression that you are right and that I am wrong just because I view the subject from a different perspective than you.
Well, that's a fair point!

The thing here is that not all views are necessarily of equal value in every instance.

In respect of a discussion regarding design infringement, to comment meaningfully, you ideally need to understand the principles. In your case, if you don't understand or value the visual design, any point you make about copying this (or not) is going to be basically flawed.

I haven't been commenting on any of the functional stuff - just the visual design. I don't understand enough about the other stuff to comment.

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I do know for a fact that functional product designers can and have produced useful visual designs in the past, but no visual designer stands a chance of producing something useful in the function design arena. That is an element of the perspective difference.
Whoa, that's a bit of bit of a sweeping statement isn't it? It's a point that is just waiting to be proved wrong.

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You seem to be under the impression that visual design is in the same category of difficulty as functional design in a smartphone product. While such designs are of obvious importance, they are still trivial in comparison to functional product elements.
In terms of levels of difficulty of functional vs visual design, how can you possibly know this? These activities use different parts of the brain. I've met engineers who have designed some quite impressive-sounding things (mobile phone firmware) who are not stunningly clever. Some things are process-related and require linear thinking, where if you keep following the path, you end up at your destination. Other things, like UI design, will not necessarily have a clear starting point. You have to work out where to start, and follow a number of branching paths to reach your destination. In terms of mental effort, who is to say which is more demanding?

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Samsung is by far the leader in the design of smartphone functional products, in the context of this threads subject anyway. So much so, that Apple has been buying those functional elements from Samsung, since Apple was incapable of producing those functional elements themselves.
That's true, but so what? They make a lot of the components that Apple use, but they still copied the way they were put together in the instance in question.

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Also you seem to be substituting quantity of words for proof that the design elements that Samsung was sued about were actually worthy of the patent protection Samsung was wrongly accused of violating. That just does not work.
Well, that's again fair, but that's not what I have been talking about. I've just been addressing the 'flat earthers' who are denying that Samsung copied Apple.

You are valuing functional design far more highly than visual design, and in terms of whether the latter should be protected under patent law, I accept that it's fair to say that patents are better suited to functional things, and copyrights more appropriate to IP like design.

But, design is apparently patentable in the US, and Samsung has clearly copied Apple. Even if it wasn't - it's a clear case of copying.

We can debate the relative value of functional design vs visual design, and in this respect it's difficult to argue against your view that functional design is more important. As to whether visual design has any value at all, that's a different matter

The reason for the number of words is that most people don't understand design at all. There are subtleties (inspiration vs plagiarism) that need to be described and illustrated to be appreciated, that defy an abbreviated Twitter-like summary.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:39 AM   #559
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:46 AM   #560
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Well, that's a fair point!

The thing here is that not all views are necessarily of equal value in every instance.

In respect of a discussion regarding design infringement, to comment meaningfully, you ideally need to understand the principles. In your case, if you don't understand or value the visual design, any point you make about copying this (or not) is going to be basically flawed.
I have heard that argument before, and it might even have some merit. I have been involved in just about every area of cell phone design and even managed some specific projects before I retired. So I have directed or worked with people involved in most of the design areas going into a cell phone product, and that is where I came up with the analogy I used that sparked your next rebutal. In the particular area that this thread is discussing, I think that gives me some insight concerning this instance. I am not, and have never said, that all visual designs can be considered trivial, but the visuals designs Apple sued over were most certainly trivial and not worthy of patent protection.



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Whoa, that's a bit of bit of a sweeping statement isn't it? It's a point that is just waiting to be proved wrong.
I don't think so, since I had a specific instance in mind when I wrote. Way back around the middle of my industrial career, I designed all the hardware, software, ASICs, product packaging and UI (visual) design of a moderately complex microwave radio product. Nothing nearly as sophisticated as a smartphone or even a feature phone. My UI design was well received by the target audience, although I am sure that a professional designer could have done better. In my experience I do not know of a professional visual designer that could have done the visual design and the rest of the product design. Maybe I could be proved wrong, but I sincerely doubt it.

You can accuse me of short attention span, but I am getting tired of this fork of the Samsung vs. Apple debate so I intend to stop posting in this fork for a while.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:46 AM   #561
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I've never come across a forum that would ban the use of relatively innocuous words such as "sheeple."
Agreed. I think the moderator intervention maybe was to prevent things escalating.

But I do think you might just have been referring to some people here in that respect

I wouldn't be offended, but I'm a master of causing unintended offence. This is partly why my posts are so long. I'm conscious of my not-so-hidden talent, so I try hard (but often fail) to avoid it!


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In regards to my own specific use of the "SH" word , I suggest you go back and read this entire thread as well as the thread titled "$329 iPad Mini" ... where I explained on more than one occasion my use of the term and specifically who it relates to. Obviously you (and others) missed it.
Apologies - I did
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:50 AM   #562
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Sorry, couldn't resist
ROTFLMAO



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Old 11-17-2012, 07:36 AM   #563
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While the two buildings don't look "exactly" the same, the Apple clone is extremely derivative of prior designs, ripping-off the most prominent features of two well-known architectural masterpieces.
In short, that's debatable, no it doesn't, and no it most certainly isn't

I could elaborate and prove this, and it is probably also useful in relation to the debate about phone design copying, but you know you're proposing to argue a technical point about copyright of architectural design with an architect - right?

I mean, haven't I bored you all enough?!

And neither building is most definitely an 'architectural masterpiece'!

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Which wouldn't be so bad if they hadn't had the gall to patent the design. It's laughable.
Well, we've covered the patenting visual design issue, and I'm not going to disagree.

Although I'm an Apple user, I can clearly see when they have done some stupid or undesirable stuff. I can also laugh at the 'sh*t Apple fans say' videos on Youtube. There are a couple on Android too.

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If you can't see it, you're not very observant about architecture, nor are you very objective.
I'm going to take that in the spirit of a jovial dig in the ribs. You don't really want to have that discussion do you?
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:22 AM   #564
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Agreed. I think the moderator intervention maybe was to prevent things escalating.
There are better ways to prevent escalation than to cut off legitimate discussion. That's almost like closing down a bar entirely because a few are too incapable of drinking responsibly.

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But I do think you might just have been referring to some people here in that respect
Until you bothered to read my previous posts, which made it clear I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, right?

In regards to general insults, if the shoe fits wear it. If it doesn't, donate it to the Salvation Army.

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Old 11-17-2012, 08:34 AM   #565
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In short, that's debatable, no it doesn't, and no it most certainly isn't
To me, it's a rip-off. It "most certainly isn't" what? Don't know what you are referring to in the last part of that sentence.

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I could elaborate and prove this, and it is probably also useful in relation to the debate about phone design copying, but you know you're proposing to argue a technical point about copyright of architectural design with an architect - right?
Shoot. Prove it.


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And neither building is most definitely an 'architectural masterpiece'!
I disagree (in regards to Polshek and Pei).


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I'm going to take that in the spirit of a jovial dig in the ribs. You don't really want to have that discussion do you?
Why not? Go ahead. You do know there are bad architects, don't you? Or perhaps "Sh..." mentality is clouding objectivity?

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Old 11-17-2012, 08:54 AM   #566
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Typical response from someone who has none. I am not surprised, coming from you.

(Click for original size)

7. Browsing — Web Browser

While loading Youtube videos, the entire screen feels empty because the "loading" screen is at the top right corner
  • iPhone: "Loading" sign appears at the center of the screen while video is loading
  • S1: "Loading" sign appears at the top right corner of the screen while video is loading

iPhone: It's easy to see the "Loading..." sign in the video screen because it's located at the center of the screen
S1: Because the "Loading" sign appears in the top right corner of the screen while YouTube video is loading, the screen below feels very empty.

Directions for improvement: Modify by inserting the text in large font at the center of the screen to match LCD size.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:27 AM   #567
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Exactly. This is the first forum I've ever been on where groups of anonymous people cannot be criticized. Most forums simply prohibit genuine "personal insults" but otherwise any group can be criticized, mocked, or insulted with the exception of racist or sexist comments, of course.
Groups of anonymous people can be criticized on this forum. Insults are not the same as criticism.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:28 AM   #568
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:14 PM   #569
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To me, it's a rip-off. It "most certainly isn't" what? Don't know what you are referring to in the last part of that sentence.
An architectural masterpiece. It's not internationally accepted as such.

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Why not? Go ahead. You do know there are bad architects, don't you? Or perhaps "Sh..." mentality is clouding objectivity?
--Pat
Don't know where you get that idea from. Of course there are bad architects.

So, let's start to talk about the alleged rip-off of the Rose Center by Apple.

I wouldn't necessarily call the second design 'derivative'. It could be claimed to be inspired by it, but derivative I think is stretching it a bit. To start with, the Apple design is fundamentally about a simple, minimal glass cube that kind of serves as a big lobby. The original work uses a glass box which is an exhibition space and just one part of a larger design. In terms of glass boxes, you can't look at the original and say it's the predecessor of all glass boxes. Architecture which is based on simple volumes is really common, and this kind of monumental architecture started with the pyramids and was revived by Claude Nicolas Ledoux and Étienne-Louis Boullée. It so happens that the medium of expression is glass. The reason for the curved roof is functional. You need to get the water off the roof so that you have less chance of snow settling on it. The ideal would be a flat roof, but it's not practical, so you try to get away with the minimum degree of curvature or slope possible so that you don't ruin the design principle of your 'cube'.

The word derivative implies that the new work arises explicitly as a result of the original, without adding to it. This isn't really true. Of course if you wanted to be picky about the term 'derivative' I guess probably over 90% of all architecture could be called derivative. This is of course different to being a blatant rip off.

The Apple store also doesn't rip off the Rose Center, because that would also involve the size of the panes, proportions, means of structural support and volume elements. Apple have used a design which is similar to a single part of another (the Rose Center is elevated on a massive masonry base which projects past the cube, has a roof which is solid, not glass, and it has a solid closed volume at one edge) and refined and improved it. The Apple store has been stripped to the point of ultimate minimalism, with an almost invisible support structure which is constructed of the same material as the cladding. On the Rose Center, the support structure is an overt part of the visual design. In the new building, it's almost non existent. Even if you take the view that the original was an explicit precedent (which is commonplace) it doesn't substantially copy the original, it only uses a part of the design, which it refines and adapts to the new context and function.

So - in terms of 'rip off' pertaining to a blatant copy, it's clearly not so. Even the glazed section isn't a rip off. Most obviously the new building has a transparent roof. Also the function is different.

Would you consider Pei's Louvre pyramid a rip-off of the orginal, but updated and translated in a modern material?

If we go back to the similarity of phone copying, the Galaxy didn't evidently add anything (apart from the logos, which aren't relevant) or take anything away from the original design, it copied it in its entirety, and copied most of the details in their complete form for precisely the same use as a direct competitor. The only really evident difference externally is the square button instead of a round one.

Now that is a rip-off
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:56 PM   #570
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This type of powerpoint presentation is frequently done in almost every large company in order to compare their products with the competition and identify areas for improvement. It's nothing unusual.
Indeed. Having worked for a large mobile phone company, I can tell you that they have phones from every other competitor, to benchmark against and to get clues on how to improve the devices. Everybody does this kind of study.
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